Training without treats?

• 10-13-2007 12:44 AM

  pheryn Joined on 04-16-2006 The Hills Posts 247 Points 100

  Training without treats? Reply Contact Hello! Is it possible to train without treats? I am trying to teach Harley some commands but, as I mentioned in my previous thread, shes really picky and sometimes will have nothing to do with treats. So what alternatives do I have for training her besides just praise (she seems to get distracted faster without the treats). So far all we have established is sit. Nikki 's Harley! Dogster

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• 10-13-2007 12:59 AM

  In reply to pheryn

  snownose Joined on 09-29-2006 Michigan to Southeast Posts 5,178 Points 405	Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact So, you have a dog that doesn't care about treats....I have been there....are there any favorite toys or games the dog is interested in? Would you mind giving us some more info about the dog?
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• 10-13-2007 2:05 AM

  In reply to snownose

  pheryn Joined on 04-16-2006 The Hills Posts 247 Points 100

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact Well Harley literally just wandered into our lives. She's only been here a few days. The vet told me that she is about 17lbs and is around 2 years of age. So far she likes to follow me and my sister around. Shes not too interested in toys or treats (yet?). As far as games... I guess follow/chase the leader? Since she follows us everywhere. So far, I've gotten her to sit and just praising her after - but its not as consistent yet and I would think she would be more responsive if there was a reward besides praise. I also notice that sometimes she would sit and then expose her belly for a belly rub all on her own, she likes that too. So I think I'm going to get her to "play dead" when she does that too - since she does it on her own.   But I just need ideas for alternatives or a good way to get her to be more attentive to training. Nikki 's Harley! Dogster

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• 10-13-2007 2:54 AM

  In reply to pheryn

  Cita Joined on 12-13-2006 CT Posts 4,665 Points 735

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact She might not be feeling comfortable enough yet to take treats. When I got my dog it was about 4 months before he really started getting excited about training or training treats or even toys - it just took him a long time to adjust to having a new owner. It seemed to help him if I'd get really ramped up and super excited while trying to play with or praise him, but with some dogs it works best if you just give a calm "good dog" and keep it really low-key. It all depends on the dog! It sounds like you're doing a lot of great things with her so far... this was the dog you recently found as a stray, right? If so, you're being wonderful with her, just give her plenty of time to adjust before expecting much from her behavior-wise. Don't worry if she's not responding 100% to training, if she doesn't want to play very much, or if she's just acting "off." Think of it as recovery time from her previous life, as if she were in a hospital. In time she'll realize what a great place she's found and she'll warm right up to things! Give her at least a few weeks before you start going crazy trying to think of alternate methods or worrying that she's unhappy - give her time to gain some confidence in her surroundings and before you know it she'll be your best [playful, attentive, hungry] friend!

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• 10-13-2007 1:40 PM

  In reply to Cita

  pheryn Joined on 04-16-2006 The Hills Posts 247 Points 100	Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact Thank you! I know she is in adjustment period. I fully believe she will slowly start to get it soon enough. Until then - really really tiny baby steps! Nikki 's Harley! Dogster
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• 10-13-2007 1:54 PM

  In reply to pheryn

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,590 Points 770

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact Toys, especially tug toys, can be a  fabulous reward, because the dog gets playtime and interaction with you, which dogs love.  A rope tug can be looped over your belt behind your back, so it can be whipped out when the dog does what you want it to do.  This keeps an element of surprise in the training, and stops the dog from focusing so much on the toy that it forgets to do the behavior. Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 10-13-2007 1:57 PM

  In reply to pheryn

  calliecritturs Joined on 09-10-2007 Central Florida Posts 7,703 Points 2,075

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact You'll learn different things have different 'values'.  some things become more IMPORTANT to the dog than others.  Not all dogs like 'doggie treats' -- but stuff like little tiny slices of hot dogs, a package of 'string cheese' and just pinch off tiny bits, Cheerios -- might work better for you. Don't ever think of it as "just praise".  Praise and your voice are the most powerful motivators ever.  Put enthusiasm into your voice -- your beaming smile truly is a huge reward (remember dogs are VERY visual and they recognize a human 'smile' as a positive thing).  neck scratches and chest pats/rubs -- those are also powerful motivators. If she decides there is a stuffed toy, ball or something she likes -- literally giving her 15 seconds to 'play' with it -- or tossing that ball as a 'reward' for coming TO you ... that becomes a reward. One of THE most powerful motivators for my dog Billy is MY excitement -- particularly if we are in front of others (like at obedience class).  When I leap into the air with a huge "WHOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Billy" that dog would lay down and die for me!!!  PRIDE!!  they do understand it. Don't be afraid of looking silly -- this is a one dog show -- do what THAT dog likes, she's your audience and you staying focused on her, will encourage her to focus on you. Find a local obedience class and just go.  It will help teach YOU to teach the dog.  Then, don't stop.  KEEP GOING.  Obedience has tons of levels -- you can get her CGC, you can do Rally ... there are tons of things to do and it's all training!!

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• 10-13-2007 3:18 PM

  In reply to calliecritturs

  pheryn Joined on 04-16-2006 The Hills Posts 247 Points 100

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact Ahh! All these things are getting me excited just because I know her potential! I might try the hotdogs too. And since she doesnt have a favorite toy yet... it just means I get to buy her more toys until I figure out what kind she likes! Would you all recommend getting a clicker? I've heard about it, read some threads, seems like it works too (I mean after I figure out her "reward" part). Nikki 's Harley! Dogster

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• 10-13-2007 3:33 PM

  In reply to pheryn

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,590 Points 770

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact I *highly* recommend a clicker.  There's all kinds of awesome games you can play with a clicker, as well as training.  It's wonderful because a clicker doesn't just train your dog to do something like sit, although it can do that too, but it also helps teach your dog how to solve problems and think about what it is you want her to do.   For example, there's a game called "the box game" or "101 things to do with a box".  You put a cardboard box on the floor and watch your dog.  Don't give any commands or anything, just watch.  If she moves even one paw towards the box, immediately click and treat.  The click "marks" the behavior, telling the dog "yes that was what I wanted" and the reward, be it food or a toy or praise, rewards her for doing what you wanted.  Do that a few times, and then the next time she moves a paw towards the box, do NOT click.  This will confuse her slightly, so she'll try to get you to make that fabulous noise again that gets her something great.  She may try sitting, coming towards you, nudging your hand.  When she moves a little closer towards the box, click and treat again.  Repeat this until she is interacting with the box by touching it with her paw or her nose, putting her paws in it, pushing it around the floor...any interaction with the box.  If you then want a particular interaction - say, you want her to put her 2 front paws in the box, stop clicking until she does THAT behavior.  She'll again try several different things to get you to make that clicking noise, including putting her paws in the box.  Then click and treat. This is known as "free shaping" and teaches your dog to think about how to get something she wants by doing something you want, and is a foundation of clicker training.  The techniques used in this game can be used to teach all kinds of things to your dog.  Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 10-13-2007 3:58 PM

  In reply to Benedict

  calliecritturs Joined on 09-10-2007 Central Florida Posts 7,703 Points 2,075

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact some folks can use a clicker -- I can't.   To me the sound of a clicker produces the SAME effect as fingernails on a blackboard -- it gives me the complete willies. I use the same principles with my voice.  You have to be SO spot on target with your praise.  And that's the mistake most folks make with praise.  They wait too long and it doesn't 'mark' the specific behavior, nor is it consistent enough. I'm not snarking clickers -- it's an awesome tool.  I just plain can't use it *sigh*.

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• 10-13-2007 4:16 PM

  In reply to calliecritturs

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,590 Points 770	Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact Callie, there are some nifty digital type ones that make different noises.  Someone in a training class I took last year had one that made a kind of "chirp" noise.  Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.
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• 10-14-2007 5:35 PM

  In reply to pheryn

  Ixas_girl Joined on 02-01-2007 Southern California Posts 2,391 Points 550

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact pheryn: Ahh! All these things are getting me excited just because I know her potential!     Yes, it's exciting isn't it! My dog is highly treat motivated, so much so that I often refrain from offering them because they are too distracting or excite her too much. Sometimes calming is a better reward than something exciting. I gear my responses towards the particulars of the situation: If I'm training my dog to be calm in the face of scary things, I let the reward be simply (and quietly) her "feeling of calmness" in the face of triggers.  When I'm trick training, I use clicker and treats, because I want her to be excited, focused on only on me, and also "precise". When I'm agility training, the runs are the reward, so I stopped using clicker and treats, which were slowing her down. In sheepherding, letting her continue to work the sheep is the "reward." It's true that it takes some time to learn what is motivating and rewarding to your dog in different circumstances. It took a few months with my dog for her to feel settled in enough that she could "act like herself". And, it took time for me to get to know her enough that I could start to recognize different things would be fulfilling in different contexts: affection, treats, toys, play, calm time, massage, affection, ignoring, not interfering ... all are possibly rewarding responses. In the beginning I used treats for everything. It taught me how to follow through on my cues, and how to be more precise in my timing with my dog. Now, as we've developed a relationship, there are many and more ways we have of communicating, that we could only have learned over time, and by paying attention to each other. Have fun!  http://dogandgirl.blogspot.com/ You're Good Enough, You're Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like You! ~ Stuart Smalley ~~~ Mary Poppins: I never explain anything.

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• 10-14-2007 5:39 PM

  In reply to Benedict

  pheryn Joined on 04-16-2006 The Hills Posts 247 Points 100

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact PROGRESS! Harley is slowly accepting her treats more now - so that is a good thing. But when she wants none of it, I found some alternatives based on the idea of her following me everywhere. I would run really fast from one room to another, with her chasing me. I would stop, and give her the sit command (since we're still trying to perfect that). When she sits, I give ecstatic praise, and a good pet rub. Then I run to another room, she chases, give the sit command, and if she doesnt do it after three tries or gets distracted, I repeat the running to another room. Its quite an exercise but shes getting it! I'm slowly working in shake into this as well when shes seated. I also ordered some clickers and two books, so those should get here tomorrow or tuesday. Incorporating those into this game, I feel would be greater progress as I would be able to capture the exercised commands faster... especially in the end when I'm pretty breathless. But hey, its good cardio! :D Thank you all so much for all the input. it helps hearing your experiences and letting me think outside the expen. Nikki 's Harley! Dogster

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• 10-14-2007 5:56 PM

  In reply to pheryn

  Ixas_girl Joined on 02-01-2007 Southern California Posts 2,391 Points 550	Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact pheryn: letting me think outside the expen.   LOL! Love it! http://dogandgirl.blogspot.com/ You're Good Enough, You're Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like You! ~ Stuart Smalley ~~~ Mary Poppins: I never explain anything.
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• 10-14-2007 6:20 PM

  In reply to Ixas_girl

  Cita Joined on 12-13-2006 CT Posts 4,665 Points 735

  Re: Training without treats? Reply Contact  Haha, very cute! You know, one of the games that really broke Rascal out of his shell was what I called the "red light / green light game." He follows me around like that too, and he already knew "sit" and "stay," so we'd walk somewhere, I'd ask him to sit/stay, I'd start walking away, he'd start to get really excited/anxious/wiggly, and then after a few moments I'd exclaim, "Okay!!! Let's go!!!!" and that was his cue to run like heck up to where I was where I'd get super excited and jump up and down and tell him what a good boy he was. To me it seems like it would get tedious and boring, but Rascal really really loved it. Great for days with bad weather, too :)

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