Barking, Barking, and some more barking!

• 10-08-2007 7:01 PM

  georgie4682 Joined on 09-10-2007 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts 1,072 Points 425

  Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Well, Benny has been with us for a little over 5 months now.  He lived in a kennel for a year of his live (from 8 months to a year and 8 months when he was surrendered).  He played with many dogs with no problems what so ever , but missed out on learning about common household sounds and outdoor sounds.  If he hears another one of our dogs in another part of the house, he barks. If he hears a car drive by, he barks. If Max barks once, Benny barks a thousand times. If we are leaving or coming home, he barks (from his crate). If an ant crawls across the front step, you guessed it, he barks! I feel like I am just about to lose my mind with all the barking.  I just don't know how to stop it.  We are in a training class which we just started (tomorrow will be our 3rd week) and we are having issues there too, and the trainer seems concerned but has offered no help, except to tell me to go to a seminar last weeked which would have cost 75 dollars, which I just didn't have then.  In the class he is barking, growling, and lunging at all the other dogs and I just don't know why.  He likes other dogs and has never been in any fights, but I don't know why he is showing this aggression in class.  The trainer ends up putting a gate with a blanket over top of it to block Benny's view of the other dogs, which is a little embarassing, plus in the last class she had me put a citronella collar on him.  The first night she asked me a whole bunch of questions: does he get into a lot of fights (no), is he neutered (yes), when was he neutered (I don't know, I only knew him since he was a year old and he was neutered then).  Plus he is fine with my other three dogs and he plays with Max, my GSD/ACD mix.  I thought the problem might be that it is a new environment and he was nervous, but before that class I went to my friends house to see her new house and let Benny meet her dog (bassett/beagle mix) and they did great together (a place he had never been and a dog he had never met).  They didn't play, but no aggression either.  I try to take him to new places and meet new people as often as I can since he lived in a kennel for so long and just never learned a lot, so I just don't get his issues in training and why he isn't used to common household sounds yet.  I know poms are a barky breed, but there must be something I can do.  Oh, and in class the only time he barks is when I'm not directly working with him.  She has us step on the leash so they lay next to us and he just flips out at the other dogs while he is laying there.  When we are working together and he is focused on me he does great. Wow, that was long!  Any help is very much appreciated!  Thanks. GeorgAnne, Buster (greyhound mix - 13 years), Lady (beagle mix? - 14 Years), Max (GSD/cattledog - 9 years), and Benny (pom - 3 years) - CGC

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• 10-08-2007 7:28 PM

  In reply to georgie4682

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,177 Points 10

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact In the class, I am skeptical about the "aggression".  I suspect he is stressed and/or over stimulated.  What is his body language like in class?  Is he restless, pacing, fidgeting?  Is there a lot of panting?  Does he have "bog eyes"? Could you find a trainer who could help you 1-2-1?  Could you afford it?  Vet anyone you choose to help you carefully and make sure that you are a) comfortable with the methods used and b) confident you can replicate them.  You could continue to socialise and train him yourself with healthy, temperamentally sound dogs and try a class again later when you have both gained more control? Re the barking - you don;t say what you have done to try to stop this?  What do you do currently when he barks?  Do you let him out of his crate when he is barking?  I do think a lot of owners make the mistake of trying to shout over the dog "quiet! no! shut up! enough! hush! stop that! Fido NO!! ARGH!"  I suspect some dogs view this as you "joining in" and it makes them a ton worse. Have you tried putting it on cue?  Attach a word like "Speak!" to the barking and then offer him a treat, along with the word "Quiet" or "Hush" whatever you want to use.  This does work with a lot of dogs, it sounds weird, but once they twig that by waiting to be ASKED to bark, they can get a nice reward (a tidbit, a toy, a game, a belly rub) they bark less at other times or not at all... and when they DO bark at other times you have a handy "on/off switch". Do you think the barking could be stress related?  What can you do to relieve his stress?  Have you tried Rescue Remedy? DAP diffuser?  What sort of chew toys does he have? Boredom?  What sort of toys does he have?  Does he have any interactive/foodstuffed ones?  What does he get in the way of walks?  Games?  Training?  Have you tried clicker training?  Very good at wearing them out if they are still bouncy after a walk andits easy and fun. "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

  Filed under: barking Post Points: 0

• 10-08-2007 10:58 PM

  In reply to georgie4682

  German Shepherd Central Joined on 10-06-2007 Athens, Ohio Posts 11 Points 70

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Chuffy gives great suggestions. Also, is there a way for you to physically leave the training area (another room, down the hall, outside the door, etc.) each and every time he starts to bark? He probably enjoys working with you and getting treats, so if all the fun (fun = seeing the other dogs, getting treats and your attention) stops when he barks, that will help. In other words, it becomes HIS responsibility to stay quiet, not yours to correct the barking. If you are thinking you will get very little obedience training done and lots of time out in the hallway with this method, you are correct! But this is valuable training for him. Ask the instructor if you can repeat the class as many times as it takes to make this work (and if he's a smart little dog, which I suspect he is, it shouldn't take a terribly long time). I have a toy/beagle mix in my classes who is exactly the same way, but now she can get through an hour-long AGILITY class with only one or two short outbursts. Pretty cool, and it took about three months. So, it looks like this: Dog barks, you immediately start pretending he doesn't exist and go back the hall/into other room/out of the building. Once he is quiet, can focus on you and perform a sit (or other simple behavior), he comes back inside. Barking = process repeats. If you manage to get inside and have >2 seconds of quiet, reward HEAVILY and keep him busy! Chances are this means you're not doing what the rest of the class is doing, but that's OK!  He probably is not being aggressive, just is over-aroused by the sight of all the other dogs. This method works outdoors as well, provided you can get him out of sight of whatever it is he finds so enthralling until he settles down. See my article on dog currency for similar ideas: http://germanshepherdcentral.net/2007/10/05/theres-money-in-dogs-well-sort-of/  It's not a dog, it's a German Shepherd. http://germanshepherdcentral.net

  Filed under: Advice, exposure, behavior, barking, training, obedience Post Points: 0

• 10-09-2007 5:09 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  georgie4682 Joined on 09-10-2007 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts 1,072 Points 425

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Chuffy: In the class, I am skeptical about the "aggression".  I suspect he is stressed and/or over stimulated.  What is his body language like in class?  Is he restless, pacing, fidgeting?  Is there a lot of panting?  Does he have "bog eyes"? Re the barking - you don;t say what you have done to try to stop this?  What do you do currently when he barks?  Do you let him out of his crate when he is barking?  I do think a lot of owners make the mistake of trying to shout over the dog "quiet! no! shut up! enough! hush! stop that! Fido NO!! ARGH!"  I suspect some dogs view this as you "joining in" and it makes them a ton worse. Have you tried putting it on cue?  Attach a word like "Speak!" to the barking and then offer him a treat, along with the word "Quiet" or "Hush" whatever you want to use.  This does work with a lot of dogs, it sounds weird, but once they twig that by waiting to be ASKED to bark, they can get a nice reward (a tidbit, a toy, a game, a belly rub) they bark less at other times or not at all... and when they DO bark at other times you have a handy "on/off switch". Do you think the barking could be stress related?  What can you do to relieve his stress?  Have you tried Rescue Remedy? DAP diffuser?  What sort of chew toys does he have? Boredom?  What sort of toys does he have?  Does he have any interactive/foodstuffed ones?  What does he get in the way of walks?  Games?  Training?  Have you tried clicker training?  Very good at wearing them out if they are still bouncy after a walk andits easy and fun.    I'm not sure what bog eyes are  but he doesn't seem nervous and he isn't panting or pacing in class.  The only time he seems to flip out is when he is laying next to me not allowed up from his down position. When he barks now, I try to get his attention by calling his name and making him come to me; when he does I praise.  But he seems to want to go right back to the barking.  It doesn't seem like it's nervousness, he just seems like he wants to be heard and he wants to get whatever is making him bark to stay away (I don't know maybe that is him being nervous).  He has tons of toys, gets long walks, plays in the yard, plays with Max...he is almost always busy.  Even when we are playing, if he hears something he may stop to go bark at it. I will give the method you mentioned a try and see how that works.  Thanks so much for your replies!  GeorgAnne, Buster (greyhound mix - 13 years), Lady (beagle mix? - 14 Years), Max (GSD/cattledog - 9 years), and Benny (pom - 3 years) - CGC

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• 10-09-2007 5:11 PM

  In reply to German Shepherd Central

  georgie4682 Joined on 09-10-2007 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts 1,072 Points 425

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact German Shepherd Central: Chuffy gives great suggestions. Also, is there a way for you to physically leave the training area (another room, down the hall, outside the door, etc.) each and every time he starts to bark? He probably enjoys working with you and getting treats, so if all the fun (fun = seeing the other dogs, getting treats and your attention) stops when he barks, that will help. In other words, it becomes HIS responsibility to stay quiet, not yours to correct the barking. If you are thinking you will get very little obedience training done and lots of time out in the hallway with this method, you are correct! But this is valuable training for him. Ask the instructor if you can repeat the class as many times as it takes to make this work (and if he's a smart little dog, which I suspect he is, it shouldn't take a terribly long time). I have a toy/beagle mix in my classes who is exactly the same way, but now she can get through an hour-long AGILITY class with only one or two short outbursts. Pretty cool, and it took about three months. So, it looks like this: Dog barks, you immediately start pretending he doesn't exist and go back the hall/into other room/out of the building. Once he is quiet, can focus on you and perform a sit (or other simple behavior), he comes back inside. Barking = process repeats. If you manage to get inside and have >2 seconds of quiet, reward HEAVILY and keep him busy! Chances are this means you're not doing what the rest of the class is doing, but that's OK!  He probably is not being aggressive, just is over-aroused by the sight of all the other dogs. This method works outdoors as well, provided you can get him out of sight of whatever it is he finds so enthralling until he settles down. See my article on dog currency for similar ideas: http://germanshepherdcentral.net/2007/10/05/theres-money-in-dogs-well-sort-of/      Going into another room won't work, but I will take a look at that article.  The training center is a big huge room split into two rooms.  We are in the back room with another class in the larger portion, and I would most likely be disturbing another class.  Thanks!  GeorgAnne, Buster (greyhound mix - 13 years), Lady (beagle mix? - 14 Years), Max (GSD/cattledog - 9 years), and Benny (pom - 3 years) - CGC

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• 11-22-2007 1:51 AM

  In reply to georgie4682

  Rascal007 Joined on 10-09-2007 Posts 38 Points 15	Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact How is the barking control going?  I have a chi that is just beginning to bark.   He is too small for a bark collar (some people recommend this).  I hope you have success.  I am waiting to hear results.  Benny looks about the same size as our Rascal.
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• 11-22-2007 4:03 PM

  In reply to Rascal007

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,178 Points 300	Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Exercise? what about exercise? do you walk your dog? or only take him outside to pee and play in the backyard, my neighbor dog barks a lot and thats because his owners only take him to pee and goes right back inside Again, do you walk your dog?  "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"
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• 11-22-2007 4:38 PM

  In reply to espencer

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,085 Points 770

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact My dog runs at top speed off-lead for 1-2 hours every day, plus he gets long lead walks, agility classes and swimming weekly when the weather's OK.  And he STILL barks and will wake up from a deep sleep do to so, so this is not always an exercise issue, though that is something to look at.    I would put the behaviour on cue, which makes it easier to then train a "quiet" command.    Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 11-22-2007 5:30 PM

  In reply to Benedict

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 Northwestern Michigan Posts 11,385 Points 405

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact My dogs too, Kate.  They get a minimum of two off lead fetch sessions daily, and those sessions are rough and rugged.  Walks, sometimes, sometimes not.  It's hunting season now so they get an extra in yard fetch session right now if I'm not up to going into town.  And yep, sometimes they still bark for no reason.  So I do agree that exercise isn't always the cause.  Nor do I personally believe that I could EVER tire my dogs, physically or mentally with an on lead walk.  A house without fur is not a home. Glenda

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• 11-23-2007 3:06 PM

  In reply to glenmar

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,178 Points 300

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Benedict: I would put the behaviour on cue, which makes it easier to then train a "quiet" command. But does that really fixes the problem?, again, let suppose that the dog barks because needs exercise, if you try to put the behavior on cue but you still dont exercise your dog, does that really help? did you really help your dog or you are showing him just not to be annoying? are you fulfilling your own need for peace and not fulfilling the dog's need for exercise? glenmar: So I do agree that exercise isn't always the cause. I agree, is not, and i dont remember stating that, once the op tell us the same then we can disregard that option, in the mean time it IS a possibility, not because is not "always" the case that mean we should not consider it as benedict said glenmar: Nor do I personally believe that I could EVER tire my dogs, physically or mentally with an on lead walk.  I agree, some breeds need more than a walk, GDS are a working breed therefore they need more than just a walk, other breeds however are fine with only walks, now if somebody does not even do walks then there might be a problem Every dog is different and not because for some dogs some tips dont work that does not mean they dont work also for others   "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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• 11-24-2007 5:45 PM

  In reply to espencer

  georgie4682 Joined on 09-10-2007 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts 1,072 Points 425

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Yep.  He gets walks...with 4 dogs if I didn't walk them I'd go insane.  I usually take him for a walk with Buster and then for a walk with Max, so he gets two quite long walks.  It may not happen everyday, but at least 4x a week.  So I don't think it's an exercise issue.  He will also play with his favorite little red ball for hours on end whether we are playing with him or not and he's small enough that he can run through the house and not cause any problems.  And he goes to daycamp once a week with Max.  AND we've been going to training.  A couple weeks ago he graduated from basic training and on Dec. 4 we start the advanced class.  We had trouble in class with the barking too and the trainer had me use a citronella collar on him to keep him quiet because he was freaking out at all the other dogs, which is odd because he gets along perfectly well with other dogs just NOT while on his leash (that is a new thing). Over the past few days my inlaws were here.  He had never met my BIL and when he first came in Benny just barked and barked at him (I wasn't here at this time) and he would leave the room and come back to him and bark some more.  Almost like he forgot he was here or didn't recognize him.  My SIL was staying with us and everytime she came home from being out he would just go crazy with barking.  I am thinking it could be issues with new people.  Ever since I got him he has been very wary of new people.  It takes him a good 10-15 minutes to warm up to them and let them pet him.  He will just sort of bark at them and avoid them untl he is feeling really comfortable.  He seems to respond to me when I tell him "shhh"when he barks, so that is helping a bit.  Getting him to focus on me helps. GeorgAnne, Buster (greyhound mix - 13 years), Lady (beagle mix? - 14 Years), Max (GSD/cattledog - 9 years), and Benny (pom - 3 years) - CGC

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• 11-24-2007 6:15 PM

  In reply to georgie4682

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,178 Points 300	Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact This has been working out for me before, you have to consider that in this video the person has a professional telling her what to do, IMO i dont think this exercise is dangerous at all, the worse thing it can happen is that like in the video the dog does not take you seriously Link  "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"
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• 11-24-2007 6:54 PM

  In reply to georgie4682

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,464 Points 500

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact You wrote that you've had the dog for 5 months. And, of course, plenty of exercise. Do you know what the dog likes? Make the not barking more rewarding than the barking. I think the barking has been a classical conditioning thing of living in the kennel. If that's all the other dogs did, that's what she learned to do. More to the point, catch her being quiet with nothing happening at all and reward that. Otherwise, I would agree that working at a range of non-barking is best and then slowly work your way in. You don't want to get rid of all her bark because that can be a hand warning. But, in most of your troublesome barking episodes, it's probably an unnecessary warning, right? So, you might try ignoring the barking, which is hard to do. I had accidently trained Shadow to bark at the door. A few times, he would hear a noise or a neighbor would come over. He would bark, I would command sit, he sat, got a treat. After a few times, he would find any reason to bark at the door, even the rustle of one leaf. It took a day or two of ignoring it. Now, he only barks at a legitimate noise. So, the warning system is still there but not for every inconsequential thing.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 11-24-2007 7:25 PM

  In reply to espencer

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,279 Points 335

  Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact Espencer, I liked that video.  It is close to how I handle a dog's barking and also introducing a dog to a pack.  In the video, the little dog has decided its job is to be the alarm.  The response of the human is what determines whether the dog will stop or escalate the barking.  For me I acknowledge the dog's barking (but at distance) and that usually does it.  If not, the tone of my voice changes and from other situations, the dog has learned what my tones mean.  A dog will always shape its behavior for pleasure and avoid displeasure. In the dog introduction part, I noticed humans were constantly moving.  This is very subtle to notice but I found it helps a lot in the introduction of dogs and makes the dogs keep changing focus.  When I introduced Paganini, a chow mix to my stable pack, I had awareness that she is dog aggresssive.  When the situation started getting tense, I started moving around and started singing, creating a distraction that also changed their focus.  I then walked around the perimeter of the yard and all the dogs followed as one pack.  To the OP, keep it simple, let the dog do its job of being an alarm and use your relationship to control the extent of the barking.   \ Added:  I handle dog introductions this way because I am experienced with introducing many dogs with different temperaments but I would not advise others with little or no experience to do this.

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• 11-24-2007 8:41 PM

  In reply to DPU

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,464 Points 500	Re: Barking, Barking, and some more barking! Reply Contact DPU: A dog will always shape its behavior for pleasure and avoid displeasure.   A nutshell moment.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb
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