"1. the bath the vet gave her was with amitraz. if this medicine is very toxic, why do vets continually give these to dogs?"
Vets have very very little in their arsenal against demodex. It's a "bad breeding" thing so there isn't any research that's been done on it. About all they can treat it with is ivermectin and the amitraz/mitaban dips. Both have a lot of side effects, but it's simply what little is known about it.
Most vets get about 10-20 minutes of one dermatology lecture on 'demodex' in vet school. They may or may not have had much experience with it in practice.
They also, as a matter of necessity, need to keep things "simple". People go to a vet and want a pill or a 'thing' done to 'fix' a problem. Demodex is a complicated immune-flaw that really doesn't respond well to most pharmaceutical/traditional treatment. It's also something that a certain percentage of the time will simply 'resolve' in a few weeks pretty much if you do nothing. So they offer the best thing they have to offer and hope for the best.
Amitraz/mitaban are both so toxic that in some states it's illegal to dispense it to an owner and the vets have to treat the dog themselves. But there are so many warnings and precautions that often they involve questions that most vets don't want to ask owners for sure, nor do they even want to ask their staff those questions ("Are you taking MAO inhibitors? Are you diabetic?") So they do the best they can and hope for the best.
But when a dog doesn't resolve (like yours) and when people get desperate enough to search the internet for an answer or ask on a messageboard -- then I give them the information I've gathered together on what I've found to be effective.
"2. frankie is 6 months old, is she still considered a puppy? is it necessary to spay her? i've read some articles online that say this can be "outgrown" like janet_rose mentioned. so the question is: is it really necessary? if it is, then i would consult the vet."
Spay/neutering does TWO things here (and this is covered pretty in-depth in my article).
A. Spay/neutering a dog halts sexual maturation. The absolute A#1 **worst** trigger is sexual maturation. That's a process that continues for months and in a female it culminates with the onset of estrus or "heat" (but then she has the swollen membranes and perhaps a continued phyical response) which then immediately continues it's 'cycle'. The female's body then spends the next number of months preparing for the next onset of estrus.
Males testicles develop and the testosterone builds in the body. EVERY time they are anywhere near (within like 5-7 miles) of a bitch in heat he responds sexually if he's not altered.
Both of those things (the continual cycling of estrus and the testosterone response in a male) literally keep the body 'stressed' in the life of a demodex dog. Altering the dog HALTS that and elminates sexual maturation/response as a trigger.
B. Demodex is a genetic flaw. Flatly -- it is a flawed immune system. Even if the demodex 'resolves' it can always flare up again (worse and worse) in later life simply with a sufficient trigger.
These dogs must not EVER be allowed to have progeny. They must not breed -- the puppies will all potentially carry the gene -- even if they don't 'show' demodex, they still carry the gene taint.
The sooner you alter a demodex dog, the sooner you halt the onset of sexual maturation and you make it easier for the body to focus on growing and developing the immune system.
"3. i know the need for spaying -because we don't want breeding weak immune-system westies. but is there a chance that she will GET WELL from this? is this something that can be CURED? or is it too early to tell because she's only 6 months old?"
It's not a disease. The word "cure" isn't the right word. It's possible with a certain number of dogs who develope just a little bit of flakey skin around the eyes and a small 'case' of demodex that it will resolve naturally as the immune system matures. However -- by the looks of those pictures above -- this dog is WAY BEYOND a natural resolution. It is generalized.
Demodex starts on the face near the eyes, spreads to the cheeks and chin and neck. It works it's way down the front of the body, eventually to the front feet. From there it will generalize to the rear feet, hind quarters and ULTIMATELY to the sides, flanks, and back and belly.
Sometimes this progression takes almost a year. Sometimes, in difficult cases, it takes just a few months. If the vet has found demodex in those spots on her sides -- it's WAY generalized. It's been thru all the other places and has already progressed. This isn't going to just resolve.
"Cure" is the wrong word. You hopefully get the immune system strong enough to repel the mites and keep them under control because the **immunes system** gets better and can handle it.
However, this dog will always have a sub-par immune system. There are things -- beyond just treating the demodex and getting the mites controlled so the body *can* heal and kick into gear -- things you will ALWAYS need to be careful of with this dog.
A. No vaccines -- she'll need one modified live parvo and one modified live distemper. After that has been allowed to build immunity then you titer -- vaccines are a huge trigger for demodex so you keep them incredibly minimal. Don't do a rabies shot any oftener than your state/county absolutely requires it -- and even then you are very very careful not to over-burden the body (no combo shots *ever*, one shot at a time -- no annual vet visits with a bunch of shots).
B. A good quality food that is NOT preserved with BHA, BHT or ethoxyquin. Those are carcinogens -- these dogs are often more prone to a whole variety of other problems as they grow older -- cancer being a big possible. So you avoid carcinogens in their food and generally do all you can do to keep this dog in good health.
C. Study your breed and the breed-related health problems -- with a westie you want to avoid strong prolonged sun, you want to keep allergens to an absolute minimum and learn to see and react to problem skin things FAST rather than letting them get bad.
That's the SHORT list.
"4. after her bath yesterday, the patches have gone progressively RED. before her bath they were a rosy color, but now they're the color of raw steak. the vet told me i can put either tea tree oil or virgin coconut oil to help ease the itchiness. is this recommended? or should i just leave these patches alone? and is it normal for these patches to get so red?"
NO coconut oil -- that's going to feed mites. Tea tree oil would be fine but not full strength. It's one of the best things in your battle against demodex but learn to use it properly. You don't want her licking it -- it will upset the tummy a great deal. Thats why I recommend putting 15-25 drops in 2-3 gallons of water, standing them in it and pouring it over and over her.
When you say the 'bath' was yesterday, you mean the dips, right??
That's a big huge mega RED FLAG. Amitraz/mitaban is a nasty nasty pesticide. It is a severe irritant and with this skin being as raw and exposed as it is, that means the skin has absorbed more of it than it should have.
If this were MY dog, I'd bathe the dog in benzoyl peroxide shampoo (running, warm water -- LOTS of it -- just like it suggests in the article) and then do the tea tree oil and water 'final' rinse. I'd get that amitraz/mitaban off the dog FAST.
I'd honestly like to talk to you at length -- sometimes vets assume demodex is the ONLY problem and sometimes it's not. Westies are SO prone to skin problems and things like food allergies, I'd want to be sure you haven't inadvertently complicated demodex with another problem. I don't like the looks of those red spots.
This is NOT a typical case of demodex. And I don't think the vet has really communicated that to you. Those spots are BAD. That's something I wouldn't expect to see for a year or better. Typically demodex spots are small but numerous. The fact that there are these HUGE red ares -- I'd be checking for problems in addition to just demodex. That would be a typical area for a food allergy.
You don't know me -- but I can imagine Cakana and Janet-Rose and a few others saying "Is this CALLIE??? Suggesting a FOOD allergy????" -- yeah -- simply because it's a typical food allergy-type hot spot place and this is a very very young dog for a big environmental allergy.
Demodex just loves to tag-team with another problem. If there is sore skin -- it's gonna JUMP there.
I'd need to know more about this dog's background -- but I'd hate to see you continue with amitraz/mitaban dips that could not only worsen the sore areas, but could actually harm the dog. (Yes, mitaban can kill -- if the dog absorbs too much of it, it can cause extreme lethargy and even insulin/diabetes type problems, among other things....) That would NOT be typical and it wouldn't be on any kind of list of things a vet would normally tell you. But the looks of those spots scares ME.
"5. should i start giving her flax seed oil now? or wait until the demodex gets better?"
Flax is only one of MANY things she needs now. I don't really understand why you're asking if you should wait. The demodex isn't going to GET better unless you do things to boost the immune system. One of many of those things will be to add Omega 3's to her diet and flax is a good omega 3. Just use the Solid Gold flax, or use Solid Gold's Sea Meal or get flax seed and grind your own. *Don't* use regular human-grade 'cold pressed' flax. It can cause major diarreha.
"6. should i start the benzoyl peroxide + tea tree oil wash immediately when she just had the amitraz bath yesterday? can these treatments be done simultaneously? i'm afraid of getting her off the amitraz bath (the doc said once a week for 5 weeks or so) for fear that she will not get well. am i being stupid for following the vet's advice? especially since the vet i go to is one of the best here, highly recommended by friends who are obsessed with their dogs."
I cover that in the article too, I think -- vets will always tell you to 'wait' weeks. They are trying to hope that the amitraz/mitaban dip will 'repel' mites. But what usually happens is that the pesticide is so 'drying' that the body then responds by flooding the skin with oil. That, in turn, feeds the mites. Makes them fat, happy and have baby mites. Not good.
By bathing off the dip, you will lessen the severity of the irritation to the skin. Frankly, this is not a dog I would dip. Not with that sort of reaction you're seeing. But doing the frequent bathing routine with the benzoyl peroxide shampoo and the warm baths with LOTS of running water, and then the final 'rinse' in tea tree oil and water -- that will help keep the mites under control
"7. sorry for all the questions but i just feel so helpless. i feel bad that my pup doesn't have the energy to run around and jump. she's just lying down most of the day. although the vet did say she'll be like this for 2-3 days after the bath. does anyone have any experience with amitraz treatments? is this something that needs to be ditched and just switch to callie's treatment?"
It isn't really that she doesn't have 'energy' -- it's that the mitaban/amitraz has literally sedated her - it's a side effect of it. And when it's this pronounced, frankly, that's a dog I would not dip again.
Back when I first had Muffin the Intrepid, I did the dips myself, and I did them WEEKLY. For the better part of THREE years. So yeah, I've had my share of experience. Because I'd become the "Mange Queen" local rescues began to send me ALL their demodex dogs. Voila -- tons of experience.
NEXT POST: (I'm gonna just keep answering what you've asked)
"i called her breeder and he told me that neither her mom or dad ever got mange (they are both champs). he said the mother sometimes got allergies but it never escalated to mange. "
It doesn't matter if Mom or Dad 'showed' demodex (altho flatly I doubt that like heck -- but a lot of breeders do not want to admit it). All that counts is that THIS dog has demodex ... ergo ... this breeder has demodex in his lines and that should be figured out and the dog carrying it in their lines ought never be bred again.
"our theory is, which i never mentioned in my previous post was recently i changed her diet from eukanuba to alpo (realized her food supply was running low and i had to rush to the nearest grocery to store to buy her food and they didn't have eukanuba, only alpo! - i normally have to drive farther to get eukanuba). when i fed her alpo (for about 2 weeks), this was when the patches started appearing. so this was probably the stressor. "
AHA!!! Like I said -- food allergy. It's not just the food that is a 'stressor' -- it's the resulting food allergy that is a stressor. And it's a biggie. By linking it to the switch in foods you've identified something you will need to be ultra careful of in future. It's likely not to be the 'brand' (altho it's a crap food). MOre likely it's something IN the food -- like corn, or other things. Don't jump on the meat source as being the allergen. It might be -- but the chemicals and wasted fillers like corn that are often the most harmful.
Eukaneuba is a Proctor and Gamble food. So is Iams. BOTH use the above-referenced BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin as preservatives. That right there is sufficient reason for me to tell you never to use them.
You ARE learning.
Feel free to holler if I can help. I hope I've boiled it down for you so it's understandable now.
Be prepared however -- VERY often a vet will say "Oh let's wait until the demodex gets better before we spay/neuter". If the dog is infected, they won't do surgery. But it won't improve (particularly with as much involvement as you see here) UNTIL you alter the dog. So just plain say "I want her spayed now. Before she goes into heat. Before the sexual maturation makes the demodex even worse. Can we schedule it for next week?"
