HW treatment

• 08-31-2007 12:08 AM

  DumDog Joined on 04-02-2007 North Florida Posts 4,587 Points 205

  HW treatment Reply Contact so i was intrigued... i give Kaydee what the vet recommended (heart guardplus) but i have known some people that give the horse wormer Ivermec to their dogs instead of the heart guard.... when i asked the vet he kinda rolled his eyes and gave an answer kind of like "hmm yeah well... its ok BUT... this is better" ... was that because it also prevents other parasites or is there something else involved? i just want some opinions really on the best prevention/treatment. or is it just a matter of taste? Kaydee used to like the chewables but when i treated her earlier this month she spit it out... so i had to pill her... and now i am finding out that when you pill them (putting it in their mouth and making them swallow it) it runs the risk of passing through the stomach and intestines without being digested.... so um.. could i have just wasted a pill or what?

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• 08-31-2007 3:36 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  aussielover Joined on 09-10-2007 Shelby Township, Michigan Posts 103 Points 105

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact  New one on me! From the name, I suspect that Ivermec is just the drug ivermectin, which was the active ingredient in a HW pill that we used with my previous dog. (Was that Heartguard?) If so, it's the identical stuff. But HG+ might protect against additional parasites. (Compare labels with an ivermectin-only canine HW preventive to find out. You can do this at one of the online pet pharmacies.) Would be my guess that it's more of a dosage concern. Ivermec is designed to be given to an animal that is probably at least 10 to 12 times the size of a medium dog, so getting the dosage correct could be dicey. Don't know that I'd have the confidence to try.   And the pilling not being effective is possible. I suspect it's not merely because of how it's given, but because it doesn't stay in the stomach long enough to dissolve. That issue could be easily cured by giving some food immediately before (or after) the pill. Salivation helps "turn on" stomach acids, and the more acid, the longer the item stays in the stomach and has more time to properly digest or dissolve. If you're concerned that even regular kibble may go through too fast, you could always give her a nice hunk of raw meat with the pill.  Guaranteed that'll cause salivation!  And a bonus, raw also takes considerably longer to digest, so whatever's in with it, will stay longer as well. Life is better with dogs! -Mary

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• 08-31-2007 3:46 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  aussielover Joined on 09-10-2007 Shelby Township, Michigan Posts 103 Points 105

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact BTW, I use a topical HW preventive. Just happen to like how Revolution works, and what it prevents. No pill problems, either, and the dogs don't seem to mind it. Especially as each gets a yummy after patiently sitting for the application!   Parting thought on Ivermec horse wormer: horses may also metabolize the drug differently, requiring a different dosage per body weight than dogs. So it may not be as simple as dividing the horse weight to reach your dog's. Life is better with dogs! -Mary

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• 08-31-2007 7:58 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,797 Points 905

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact Parting thought on Ivermec horse wormer: horses may also metabolize the drug differently, requiring a different dosage per body weight than dogs. So it may not be as simple as dividing the horse weight to reach your dog's. Yes, I believe this is the valid reason why vets advise against it (the not-so-valid reason being they just want you to purchase preventatives from them).  The horse wormer is a much higher concentration of ivermectin, so therefore you cannot compare the weight of a dog against that of a horse and do a simple multiply/divide.  I use Zimectrin, a horse wormer paste with ivermectin.  Kenya's breeder has been using this as a preventative for decades and never had a problem, so I figured if that's what she's used to, that's what I will use (and I'm not complaining about $8 for a whole year!).  But yeah, I never could have dosed it myself, I got the amount from the breeder and it's true that I give her a LOT less than if I were to ignore the concentration and simply compare based on weight.  If I went based on weight, I would give Kenya about 4% of the tube of paste each time, but I actually give her more like less than 1% (half a pea sized drop and this is a BIG tube of paste). vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono STAR ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 08-31-2007 8:40 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  calliecritturs Joined on 09-10-2007 Central Florida Posts 8,033 Points 2,180

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact Whoaaa, not quite right here.    Ivomec (the liquid particularly) is designed for cattle and pigs.  It is VERY strong.  So it can be a bit tough to dose (but not impossible) for dogs.  And you have to be very very *very* careful with herding dogs because of adverse reaction to ivermectin.   HeartGuard has ONLY ivermectin in it as far as what kills parasites.  But the dose is microscopic in comparison to the liquid ivermectin/Ivomec.  They've done this to try to make it acceptable for all breeds.  But the problem is that HeartGuard is **failing** at higher and higher rates because it's SO low-dosed.    Giving the liquid ivermectin isn't hard -- you just have to make sure the dog consumes all of it -- you can put it on a bit of bread and then put something like peanut butter or cheese on it (the liquid is a tad bitter).  In other words you don't want to just squirt it on dinner and then have the dog not eat part of it.   Ivermectin is a pesticide that can deal with a huge range of blood-feasting parasites -- from heartworm microfilaria to hooks, whips, lungworm, sarcoptic mites, etdc.  But those things all require a higher dose than the heartworm preventive dose.   So if you want to do 'more' you use the liquid (or you use Interceptor, milbemycin, which is safer for dogs -- all breeds -- and is dosed higher).  But no, HeartGuard doesn't do 'more' than ivomec.    Be aware -- using a spot on type thing like Revolution can be dangerous.  More adverse reactions by far.  In that case the pesticide STAYS in the body -- it's systemic.  It stays in the bloodstream and 'hopefully' is out of the body by the next time you dose it.  However -- it also has been known to fail with alarming frequency.    Ivermectin and milbemycin are out of the body in 24 hours.  I won't use anything systemic -- it's too prone to the same sort of problems ProHeart 6 caused.

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• 08-31-2007 8:44 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  Bobsk8 Joined on 08-22-2006 Atlanta, GA Posts 1,513 Points 100	RE: HW treatment Reply Contact To high a dose, and it could prove  fatal to your dog. If your dog won't take a pill, get Pill Pockets..  What kind of pill are you giving the dog that you think won't be digested???[&:] http://www.24hourpet.com/pill-pockets-c-123.html Adopt rather than buy, and save a life
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• 08-31-2007 9:39 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  erica1989 Joined on 02-21-2007 Clearwater, Florida Posts 3,148 Points 260

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact We use liquid ivermecton at work for the initial exam, reason being it IS much, much cheaper. We mix ivomec in with another substance, the ration being 10cc(ivomec) to 90cc(the other one). Then we only dose out 1cc per 10lbs of dog. Very low dosing. We mixed the liqued in with a dewormer and some yummy canned food. The dogs get regular heartguard after that until they leave the shelter. I personally give my dog interceptor, and have had no problems with it! My vet reccommend it because of the worms that it also kills.

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• 08-31-2007 11:35 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  DumDog Joined on 04-02-2007 North Florida Posts 4,587 Points 205

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact If your dog won't take a pill, get Pill Pockets..  What kind of pill are you giving the dog that you think won't be digested??? i gave her the heart guard we got from the vet, the chewable meaty looking kind. she normalls snaps them up without a problem, but that day she was being stuborn and i didnt have time to sweet talk her. i know i should have probably waited until later when i could take time - but stuff was going on and i didnt want to risk forgetting it. when we first got her she tested medium low for heart worms so the vet gave me heart guard... but after what i read last night i'm wondering why he didnt just give her the stuff that would kill them out right. the way they were talking was the HG+ would prevent there being MORE worms and the ones she had already would die in two years.. i didnt know about any topical treatments, nor did i know that there were products that would kill the worm itself. i read that it can be risky if there are a lot of worms.... oi... i just need to make an appoint at the vet soon i suppose. and bring a list of things. not that i dont trust you guys. i hope you understand.. heart worms are kinda creepy and from what i've read here the medicine is just as risky as the worms! thank you for what you did tell me because i learned a lot here. especially the part about them failing due to low dosage! my dog could still have heart worms and they could be getting worse?! the last time we were at the vet they didnt do any tests on her because they were more concerned about her back, and given the circumstances i couldnt ask them to do more. as it was my family helped me pay half the bill. she has two chewables left in the pack, should i go ahead and let her finish those up or do i just need to find out if the new vet has something better? i already know i need to get her checked to see if she still has them or if there are more.. this is rather annoying, you know? again its blindly trusting someone else to give you the right product. one of my cousins gives hers the ivermec paste and thinks i should do the same and just be done with it.. [8|]

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• 08-31-2007 11:41 AM

  In reply to DumDog

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact ORIGINAL: aussielover [sm=2cents.gif] New one on me! From the name, I suspect that Ivermec is just the drug ivermectin, which was the active ingredient in a HW pill that we used with my previous dog.   I believe this was the drug given to one of my fosters for mange.  During that time and for a few months there was no need to give the dog preventive HW pills.  The vet said it was the active ingredient in HW pills but of a much higher concentration.

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• 08-31-2007 12:13 PM

  In reply to DumDog

  Bobsk8 Joined on 08-22-2006 Atlanta, GA Posts 1,513 Points 100

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact ORIGINAL: DumDog If your dog won't take a pill, get Pill Pockets..  What kind of pill are you giving the dog that you think won't be digested??? i gave her the heart guard we got from the vet, the chewable meaty looking kind. she normalls snaps them up without a problem, but that day she was being stuborn and i didnt have time to sweet talk her. i know i should have probably waited until later when i could take time - but stuff was going on and i didnt want to risk forgetting it. when we first got her she tested medium low for heart worms so the vet gave me heart guard... but after what i read last night i'm wondering why he didnt just give her the stuff that would kill them out right. the way they were talking was the HG+ would prevent there being MORE worms and the ones she had already would die in two years.. i didnt know about any topical treatments, nor did i know that there were products that would kill the worm itself. i read that it can be risky if there are a lot of worms.... oi... i just need to make an appoint at the vet soon i suppose. and bring a list of things. not that i dont trust you guys. i hope you understand.. heart worms are kinda creepy and from what i've read here the medicine is just as risky as the worms! thank you for what you did tell me because i learned a lot here. especially the part about them failing due to low dosage! my dog could still have heart worms and they could be getting worse?! the last time we were at the vet they didnt do any tests on her because they were more concerned about her back, and given the circumstances i couldnt ask them to do more. as it was my family helped me pay half the bill. she has two chewables left in the pack, should i go ahead and let her finish those up or do i just need to find out if the new vet has something better? i already know i need to get her checked to see if she still has them or if there are more.. this is rather annoying, you know? again its blindly trusting someone else to give you the right product. one of my cousins gives hers the ivermec paste and thinks i should do the same and just be done with it.. [8|] Heart worms are the dog disease from hell, and I wouldn't  play around with self medicating or postponing the vet visit. They can affect the dogs entire life, and can easily be life threatening.   If your dog haas heartworms and they died all at once, it could be fatal to the dog  Get to the Vet and let the vet sort it out.... Adopt rather than buy, and save a life

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• 08-31-2007 12:27 PM

  In reply to DumDog

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact ORIGINAL: Bobsk8 Heart worms are the dog disease from hell, and I wouldn't  play around with self medicating or postponing the vet visit. They can affect the dogs entire life, and can easily be life threatening.   If your dog haas heartworms and they died all at once, it could be fatal to the dog  Get to the Vet and let the vet sort it out....   Correct.  I do fostering and when a foster comes to me with HW, mild or severe, it is two months rehab for just the HW.  Usually there are other health conditions that delay the HW treatment so the dog is with me an average of 4 months before being available for adoption....and that is with me giving no training.  I am also told that after HW treatment, the test will show positive for a full year.   I don't understand why your vet only gave your dog HW prevention.  I would question him and if you don't understand the answer, get a new vet.

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• 08-31-2007 12:33 PM

  In reply to DumDog

  DumDog Joined on 04-02-2007 North Florida Posts 4,587 Points 205

  RE: HW treatment Reply Contact remember i said this was when we first got her and this was back in summer '04 when she was tested to be medium low. but now that i am hearing that the dosage is so small in these pills i'm worried thats done nothing at all. dont worry she's going back to the vet ASAP now, for sure. we've moved since this happened so i'm going to ask the new vet about this. it was one of those things where you think the situation is handled. the first vet said the HG+ would do the trick so i believed him. but when reading another thread last i got suspicious. stupid me i know.. dont beat me up too much. i'm trying to correct this.

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• 08-31-2007 12:36 PM

  In reply to DumDog

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365	RE: HW treatment Reply Contact ORIGINAL: DumDog remember i said this was when we first got her and this was back in summer '04 when she was tested to be medium low.   You don't do annual HW test?
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• 08-31-2007 12:41 PM

  In reply to DumDog

  DumDog Joined on 04-02-2007 North Florida Posts 4,587 Points 205	RE: HW treatment Reply Contact i didnt since then because of what the vet told me. he just renewed the prescription. again i was following advice of a professional. my mistake.
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• 08-31-2007 12:46 PM

  In reply to DumDog

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365	RE: HW treatment Reply Contact Get the test.  For me its $80 and I do it annually but then again I don't HW prevention in the winter months.  My choice for funding reason but I am sure one day it is going to come back and bite me.
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