rw-On the heels of that spanking study

*sigh* I just got done reading it on Yahoo. 

You know, I find it interesting that this is about "paddling" in SCHOOLS -- not in homes.  And it's only been done *once* per the article (so it's the threat of paddling that's giving them such awesome "results" -- if you can call it that). 

Unfortunately like most things of this ilk it leaves a ton of questions and few answers.  The issue was raised that often in such scenarios it is children who are in some way "disabled" (I think that was the word) -- meaning kids who are ADD, ADHD, etc. etc. etc. who get targeted.  So I'd wonder if this particular city has any programs FOR dealing with kids who are outside the "norm" (and would they know "outside of norm" if they got whumped upside the head with it??)

I'd also have to wonder how the local HRS views this if it were done in the home? 

I guess the whole thing just makes me roll my eyes and wonder aren't we just a little tiny bit beyond this on the evolutionary scale?? 

And if they're going to morph back to MY momma's way of disciplining then perhaps follows that if I got whupped at school (or if I even got the THREAT of it) then I'd get punsihed **at home** 100 times worse than I did at school!!  (The threat would have gone something like "You won't be able to sit down for a MONTH!" -- and it would likely have been darned accurate!)

I haven't read the article...I will, just too tired now.  However to comment on the parents reacting to a behavior in school.  In the district where I teach there are MANY behavior problems, violence in every classroom, and very disrespectful students.  Try as these teachers might, there is no TEACHING these children manners and how to be respectful to both adults and peers.  If they don't have the discipline at home, they won't learn it at school with or without paddling (although paddling may help them to behave IN school so the teachers can at least teach).

At this point in my district, paddling wouldn't work.  These kids are TAUGHT at home that school isn't important.  They are actually told that if someone does something to you, you have the right to do it back to them...they (and their parents) don't care if they are suspended.  It doesn't matter as long as they retaliate with something equal.  These kids have no thought that if someone does something to them, that they should find an adult and let them know what happened, nope, retaliate immediately and make the situation 10 times worse.  AND these are ELEMENTARY kids!  It's scary. 

The problem is that the discipline needs to start at home, if you don't have that parental support, nothing else matters.  These kids will listen to their parents first.  I do find it difficult to find consequences for kids anymore because they just do not care about anything.  They don't care if they miss a day of recess or have to sit alone at lunch for a day...it just doesn't matter to them.  And then there is the anger that these kids have.  I just don't get how a 5 or 6 year old can be so mean and nasty and so ANGRY towards both teachers and peers!  It is actually scary some days.    Some are so defiant that they don't get to go on field trips.  You can't take a child who absolutely refuses to listen on a field trip where they could endanger themselves or others.  It just amazes me at how many times a day I hear kids say "no" to teachers or just simply ignore a teachers request and go about their business like nothing was said to them.  Just today I had a kid (4th grade) telling me that he hates me because I needed him to put away his puzzle and work with the class.  He then proceeded to defy me and it escalated to the point where he needed to be sent to the office because he was being so disruptive that the other kids couldn't work.  And they shouldn't have to listen to him talk to me like that.

These are kids whose parents probably swear at them and hit them and ignore them to such an extent that they feel it is normal.  They never see it any other way.  The parents don't back up the teachers; it always must be "someone else's fault".  Or the ever so famous, "what did YOU do to provoke my child, or what did that student do first?"  This district has been in a lot of hot water lately because of the many behavior problems, but there is only so far you can go without proper parental support and proper raising of their children.

This was a story of a neighboring district yesterday:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/14/3rd-grader-passing-out-drugs-at-school/

I'm not sure how I feel about paddling kids, but I think the article made a good point about there being no consequences for kids.  DH and I just had a similar discussion.  He started a new teaching position this week and told me he has one boy in his class who repeatedly makes very inappropriate remarks at another girl and sometimes acts very stalkerish towards her.  He will blurt out things in front of the entire class and DH says it makes everyone, especially her, feel very awkward.  DH asked me what I thought he should do about it because simply telling the kid to cut it out doesn't work.  He's a really weird kid and will do anything for attention, negative attention is just fine with him.  I told DH the problem is that there is no consequence.  If he blurts out something inappropriate during class and you stop to reprimand him, he's still one because he got your attention and there was no consequence for his behavior.  Also, if he's still doing this stuff in one or two years it's going to go from inappropriate to sexual harassment.  I'm not a teacher but my advice was to find some way of making a consequence.  For example, I said if it were my classroom, first I'd sit down with this kid and explain how inappropriate and dangerous his behavior is and that from now on there are no warnings or explanations there are only consequences.  So if he makes a remark at this girl, there's no stopping class to explain to him he is wrong, but when everyone gets up to go to recess or the field trip, guess who's butt stays behind and gets a note home to mom?  Three strikes and it's over to the principal to discuss a suspension.  That's how I would handle it. 

I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for any sort of back-talk.  I would not last two minutes in a classroom.  I see a lack of respect in a lot of kids these days, much of it stemming from parents who give kids way too many choices.  But in my mind, when you are that age you do what you are told because the teacher is the teacher and you are the kid, period.  When I was in first grade I was terrified of being in trouble.  Twice I got in trouble and both were mistakes but I never dared talk back to the teacher and I just accepted the punishments.  Once some girl dared me to stick up my middle finger and I had no clue that was bad, so I did like it was no big deal and then she tattled on me.  The other time I got caught taking a yogurt cup to the drinking fountain to wash out.  We used to be able to go on our own and then the teacher changed the rule but one day I honestly just forgot.  Both honest mistakes but I'd rather be "bad" for a day then dare challenge the teacher.

Georgie, my DH can relate to the lack of parental support.  Now he is in a rich private school but this time last year he was in the worst public school in the city.  When he was in their first grade, one day HALF the class was missing because they either didn't show up or were suspended.  Multiple six year olds, suspended!  He's seen parents get into fist fights on school grounds in front of the kids.  One kid got expelled b/c he was threatening other kids with a weapon.  DH actually has a file for worker's comp because a kid threw a basketball right at his face while he wasn't looking and it smashed DH's nose (so I got pissed as hell and made dang sure the school paid for every cent of those Dr visits!  And DH still has the option of surgery at any time, at their expense).  There's one guy in the school's neighborhood who gets up every morning, goes around various houses and gets kids up to make sure they get up and go to school.  Ironically, the only time the parents get involved is when there is a serious disciplinary issue and then it's only to make lame excuses cuss out the teacher for supposedly singling out their child.

 I don't think paddling is the answer to the problem here, at least not for a large number of the kids. I'd take a bet that kids will inappropriately model the punishment on other kids. IE- kid gets paddled for something, so some other kid gets him mad, kid is smaller, so he figures it's ok to paddle him.

Suspension is the biggest load of crap right up there next to paddling. Take a kid who doesn't care about school and doesn't want to be there, and suspend him from school. That's a real genius way to teach the kid how get out of going to school. My high school had a dumb policy where, after so many times being late, you'd get a detention. After I had been late up to the limit, if I overslept, I just didn't show up for the whole day. I'd walk in the building after school the same day to make up tests. 

I don't think you're going to get too far with lots of these kids when the culture of the community is that school isn't important. It's just a place for them to dump their kids for a few hours. 

"It's like speeding," said Bill Woodward, a graphic designer. "Are they going to give you a speeding ticket, or . . . a warning? I'd speed all day if I knew it was going to be a warning." 

I liked that line out of the article. I'd speed all day too, and I do often. You don't know what you're going to get, and the chances of getting anything on any particular occasion are pretty low. Your chances of paddling I would assume go up with each instance of certain behaviors that you get caught engaging in. The trick here is to do it up till the point were you'd get paddling, then don't get caught anymore. If it's three strikes, and they amp up the punishment until you reach paddling, you're best bet is to get caught only twice. 

I think some times suspension is a joke, to the kid at least, but for certain offenses the more important thing is to remove a threat or stop the constant disruptions.  Like in DH's case, he has already heard from the parents of the girl that they don't want the boy anywhere near their daughter, but it's impossible to prevent it when they are the same age, same classes, same recess.  So if it escalates or continues, in all fairness to her and the other kids whose work is constantly disrupted by outbursts, maybe the offending boy just needs to be removed and his parents can deal with him at home.

At DH's old school (the bad one) suspensions were a joke to the kids but certain offenses carried mandatory suspensions, again because of the liability to the school and safety of others (getting in a fight, threatening someone, a boy acting inappropriate towards a girl, etc).

 *Sigh* I agree with Callie that we ought to have progressed farther on the evolutionary scale.  Discipline is about consequences, for sure, but that does not have to mean corporal punishment.  What it does have to mean is the removal of a privilege that the student really cares about.  That's why suspension doesn't work for a lot of kids.  They actually *want* to be suspended, because there is something unpleasant about being at school (again, a lot of the ADHD kids are probably higher on the list - because the very structure of school is hard for them to deal with and be successful at).  I don't know what the exact answer is, but I think it isn't paddling.

And then here's the kicker when you take something away.  These kids figure, "oh well, it's gone, I can continue to do what I'm doing because I already got in trouble for it".  Yesterday that kid who was backtalking me and saying he hates me, blah, blah, blah said "you're already writing me up so why should I stop?"  What do you do with that???  I just don't know what it is with these kids.  Then there are the kids who just don't get what a consequence is.  You say you have 3 chances and then you are out of the party/fun day/field trip/whatever, and then they lose that privelege, but then when the time comes for that fun thing and you tell that child he isn't allowed because of this, they don't get it.  They just don't understand that you are serious about the punishment and you will stick to it.

I don't know about the whole paddling thing.  I want to be totally against it, but then I think about what teachers have to deal with everyday and I don't know.   I can't imagine how hard it must be for teachers. 

I think there's no question that the problem stems from the parents.  I don't know what it is, when I was a kid, in elementary school, there didn't seem to be so many behaviour problem kids.  I mean, there were the "bad" kids, but they were the kids from the lower income families.  At least in my small town that I grew up in.  There wasn't a lot of them by any means.  It seems like now, when I am out shopping, I see all sorts of unruley kids in stores, restaurants, etc.  Parents don't seem to know how or want to or perhaps they are afraid to discipline their kids.  

I think if kids have no consequences at home and they are not taught to respect adults, then teachers don't stand a chance of being able to discpline them at school. 

I will use my neice and nephew as an example.  At first meeting, they appear to be good, well behaved children, until you spend some time with them.  They do not listen to a word anyone says, even their parents.  They have no consequences for being rude of misbehaving.  It's not like they misbehave outrageously, so my BIL/SIL are under the impression that they are perfect.  Their misbehaving is small things, but rude things.  They don't say hello when they arrive somewhere.  They just go and play their video games quietly.  If they are doing something to annoy the dogs/taunting them and FH and I try to explain that what they are doing is really bothering the dogs, they don't listen, they will keep doing it until we remove ourselves and the dogs from the room - BIL/SIL can be in the same room and they will say nothing to tell them to listen to us, or to stop them from doing the behaviour.  When my nephew gets really upset, his reaction is to lunge and start punching at you, and BIL/SIL will say nothing to him about it.  Usually, if we try to tell the kids not to do something, my neices reaction is to start crying and run to BIL/SIL who will then pick her up and cuddle her, telling her it's ok, etc.  Our nephew will just look at us and walk away.  They have learned that they aren't accountable to any adults for anything.  I think it's just lucky that they are quiet withdrawn kids and their behaviour isn't "outgoingly violent or loud" if you know what I am trying to say. 

I think parents in a lot of cases, tend to look towards schools as a babysitting service, not a place of leaning and growing.  They expect teachers to parent their children so they don't have to.  I think that sex education is a good example of this.  I am on a skiing website, have been for years, but the majority of kids on there now are 13-17 and it's outragous what these kids don't know about sex and preventing pregnancy and STD's - yes that has little to do with skiing, it's just the only place I "talk" or "read" what teenagers say LOL.  I don't know where they get their "facts" from, they just spew misinformation to other teenagers.  I think it is soooo important for parents to talk to their kids about sex education.  I don't even know if schools do it at all now.  When I was in school, I think we had like three sex ed lessons, that was it.  I think it's an awkward conversation that parents don't want to have, so they are happy in assuming their child's school will cover all the necessary information.  Nevermind the fact that I am pretty sure there are still schools that teach abstinence and nothing else. 

I am probably done now, who knew that would turn into a sex education rant.  Oh well.  

Callie asked if the threat of paddling was more effective than the actual paddling, since it hasn't been done often. Well, the threat only means something if it's based on something real. We're willing to accept that any number of things can be punishing to our dogs, "it's all part of life, things that don't work out or we bump up against," etc. Well, the same has to be said for humans, I think. Really, if the threat is working, it's only because of real examples that stick in the minds of students and they begin to think, "Mmm, if I do that, I could be punished in a way that I don't want to be punished. Perhaps, I will shut up and listen, even if it's just to avoid being paddled."

Similar to rewards. If you do something and it is not rewarded, you are not likely to do it as often. But if its' rewarded at least once in a while, you will do it again, for the reward.

 When ever I hear of paddling in schools I always wonder what they do to the kids who are aren't going to meekly comply with bending over and letting someone take a chunk of wood to their rump?  I mean to dole this out are they willing to have multiple adults in on it to hold down an unruly kid?  I'm thinking that could get rather messy especially in middle school/high school where the students can be bigger and are often more physically fit than the adults.

 My personal rule on physical force is it should only be used if necessary to defend oneself, someone else, or potentially the initiator from hurting themselves.  I've also always viewed it as an in the moment sort of thing not something you do long after the fact, sort of like you don't shove a dogs nose in an accident and swat them on the rear for a mistake they did hours ago.  Finally, as I already mentioned, I believe a person has the right to protect their body.  Therefore I believe a child has the right to defend themselves by whatever means necessary if someone is coming at them with a giant stick with intentions to hit them with it.  I was a straight A student, never got so much as a detention, never talked back to a teacher, but if anyone had tried to paddle me in school I would have fought tooth and nail in defense of my body.  I have respect for others but first and foremost I have respect for myself.

georgie4682

The problem is that the discipline needs to start at home, if you don't have that parental support, nothing else matters.  These kids will listen to their parents first.

^This, 1000x.  How I behaved in school had nothing to do with the consequences the school handed out, and everything to do with how my mom would feel about my behavior or more importantly, what she would DO about my behavior.  BTW, she wasn't a physical punisher for the most part (it wouldn't have worked, I'd have preferred a slap to the face to a grounding any day).....

Krissim Klaw

 When ever I hear of paddling in schools I always wonder what they do to the kids who are aren't going to meekly comply with bending over and letting someone take a chunk of wood to their rump? 

I grew up in a time when you could get paddled at school and yes, I did get one, for fighting. And I chose the paddling over detentions. Back then, kids did submit to the paddling because it was a "universal" expectation back up by a "universal" reality that if you misbehave bad enough, such as fighting, you will get paddled. It's only when adults decided to let children run the show that children got bold enough to say "no" to discipline. I'm not saying that every child needs a spanking for every infraction. But the punishment should fit the crime.

 What was I fighting about? I thought someone said something about my mom. It turned out later that he did not and I felt bad for that. But, at the time, saying something bad about my mom was the quick button to trigger me to kick your butt. So, I took 3 swats instead of 3 detentions because I had chores to do at home. I didn't get spankings at home for that. It's hard to swat your child when he is defending your honor, misguided or not. No one ever talked bad about my mom, again. I took my swats and walked on home with honor, even though I expected my mom would spank me to. See, back then, it was considered bad form to bring shame upon your parents by doing something that required such disciplanry measures. But personally, I could take whatever punishment I was getting without squawking about. Just don't talk bad about my mother.

Anyway, when people can trust that you will follow through, even on corporal punishment, they will trust your word and then, after a while, just the threat of physical punishment is sufficient.

And there were some students that didn't get paddled in school and never misbehaved enough to need it. But I think that's indicative of society, in general.

ron2

I grew up in a time when you could get paddled at school 

Me too, but the nuns weren't so much into paddling as they were into various types of torture.   I remember once in 6th. grade a nun caught me writing *Elvis* on one of those art gun erasers and grabbed the yard stick to bring it down on my hand. If I hadn't pulled my hand  back at the last minute (she actually left a dent in my desk) I would have had four fingers lopped off at the knuckles.

Joyce