Reintroducing dogs that have fought

    • Silver

    Reintroducing dogs that have fought

    We're faced with a choice: Place one of our dogs for adoption or somehow reintroduce them and reintegrate the pack. Problem is, two of our dogs got in several bad fights over the course of a few days. At the end, they could not stand being in the same house.

    The dogs: All are fixed. One, a rescued mix, four years old and 65 lbs. Possibly GSD mix. She's reactive, especially on the leash, and has had some resource guarding issues. I've worked with her for three years. She's no longer a concern. Two, a two-year-old boxer we raised from puppy. Dubious breeder, temperament problems are quite possible. He's just recently showed some bad resource guarding, ownership of couch, my wife, some other things. We've realized he's been badly spoiled. He's on strict NILIF and responding slowly. Three, a now ten-month old bullmastiff. She's already 70lbs and has clearly realized she can push the other dogs out of the way. Also spoiled. The boxer and bullmastiff are both well socialized and coming along well with obedience. They're all smart but stubborn and demand motivation (read: treats).

    A few weeks ago, the boxer jumped the puppy when she got too close to his food bowl. Manageable fight. Same day, he jumped her when she got too close to the couch. Bad fight, they had to be separated for a while. Next few days, three or four more fights, each one worse. Punctures and lacerations on both -- face, nect, and front legs. After the last one, they had to be physically separated with closed doors. The boxer was so worked up he was rigid. My brother in law fostered the boxer for a few days, and then we switched so he now has the bullmastiff puppy. He wants a dog and has experience handling working dogs, and both the boxer and bullmastiff have been great citizens with his kids. However, his family is unprepared for the work and leadership required to raise strong breeds like a boxer or a bullmastiff -- let alone the energy of a 70-lb puppy running laps through the house.

    They need to give our dog back, so we have to make choices. Pros, we're above-average dog savvy. I've been training and walking these guys, and I can pick up right away on any signs of trouble. Both the boxer and the bullmastiff are neutered. They're opposite sex. The puppy is growing, so there's every reason to assume the problems that suddenly cropped up were a result of changing -- therefore temporary -- dynamics. The boxer's possessiveness and the body-blocking bullying stuff, where the bullmastiff throws her weight around to monopolize access to petting, is fixable with NILIF. Cons, they may have made enemies for life. We have kids in the house, and it's difficult enough, when fights do break out, to separate these two very strong dogs without having to worry about redirected bites to the kids. It's also difficult for me to keep hawkeyes on the dogs at all times while giving the kids the attention they need as well.

    Neither dog will be difficult to rehome. The problem is that we don't want to contribute to the population of dogs that need homes, and, more important, we love both. It's gut-wrenching to have to choose one or the other. The other option is to try reuniting them. That's where I turn to you folks. I'm willing to try bringing them together in a neutral place, with the parallel walk getting closer and closer, watching, etc. I'm even willing to crate and rotate temporarily and muzzle the two in the house for a while if that's going to enable us to create a pack again.

     Have any of you had good experiences in similar situations? Help me make an informed decision.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Fenris
    It's also difficult for me to keep hawkeyes on the dogs at all times while giving the kids the attention they need as well.

    I think this is the main issue. I would say that yes you can reunite them BUT for that to be possible you will need to supervise them 24/7.

    Dogs are social animals and whoever tells you that there is a chance that they will be enemies for life then those people are just too lazy and not saavy enough to deal with this type of problems.

    The problem is that you might not have the time to work on it as it needs to be. The more time you keep them separated the longer will take you to solve it. You would need to be with them every single minute of every single day to catch the warning signals and redirect the behavior, this is the only way they can realize that what they are doing is not part of the huse rules.

    Every time a fight happens would be a step back on your progress and it would be back to square one. I just don’t think you will have the time necessary to take care of the problem properly

    Paralell walks work for dogs that never met eachother and at the same time don’t like eachother. This issue is beyond feeling closer by walking (which I recommend), they feel they are already part of the same pack but hierarchy and each dog's issues are the problem.

    If you could tell me that you could spend every single time with them and devote every single second to repair the behavior then I would say go for it. But you cant, the fact that they keep fighting even when you can pick up signs of trouble before it happens is an indication that you can not supervise them all the time. If you can not suprevising all the time then is dangerous for your kids

    Sure you can separate them, rotate them and/or work with them after the kids are taken care of but then the process will take years instead of months and I don’t think its fair for the dogs to keep living like that for years waiting on you to have the time to teach them what to do and what not to do.

    I think any of them would be happier with an owner that can dedicate them the time they need to help them with their problem one on one and does not have any other obligations other than the dog

    • Gold Top Dog

     If I were you, I'd re home the Boxer.  A mature Boxer who is damaging other dogs should be in a one dog household without any kids (resource guarding is a deal breaker for kids, no matter what anyone tells you - don't chance it).  Period.  Your Boxer has, unfortunately, taught an adolescent puppy that she has to fight for her life, which doesn't necessarily bode well for her relationship with the other female when the Bullmastiff reaches the age of social maturity as the Boxer now has.  But, if your older female is appropriately deferential to the little one, things could work out.  My guess is that they will not work out with the Boxer - you have neither the time, nor the resources, it seems to deal with a severe situation like this.  No dog should have to live in fear of its housemates indefinitely, and Boxers are not notorious for being ok once they have not been ok.  You would, to guarantee the younger dog's safety, IMO, have to crate and rotate forever.  These dogs are way too close in age and status to be a good bet.  However, if you decide to try, please do avail yourself of a behaviorist from your nearest college of veterinary medicine.  Not cheap, but no substitute for accurate knowledge.  On an Internet forum, you may get everything from put the dog to sleep to cozy them up again.  IMO, when dogs injure each other, professional help is called for - dogs are meant to fight ritualistically, and when they don't, all he&& can break loose, even to the point of a coming home to a dead dog.  Not long ago, on this forum, someone who didn't take the advice to consult a behaviorist lost their dog because of a repeat injury to another family dog. 

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    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    whoever tells you that there is a chance that they will be enemies for life then those people are just too lazy and not saavy enough to deal with this type of problems.

    I'm going to disagree with this statement. My most obvious example is a well-respected trainer who is consulted for especially aggressive cases who happened to own two females in a pack that at one point had 12 dogs.  Those two are known to fight, at any chance given without the hawkeyes of the owner at all times.  Without her there, or immediate attention to brewing postures, they will fight, and had lived together for 7-8 years.  The older of the two passed away earlier this year.

    I would lean toward Anne's suggestion to rehome the Boxer, too, but to a home without children - or with an especially savvy owner who will curtail the guarding.  Children have to come first, and the interactions between children and a resource guarding working breed can be disaster.  Not every time, of course, but you're clearly cognizant of the reason to be wary of placing that dog with your in-laws.

    espencer
    Sure you can separate them, rotate them and/or work with them after the kids are taken care of but then the process will take years instead of months and I don’t think its fair for the dogs to keep living like that for years waiting on you to have the time to teach them what to do and what not to do.

    To imply that a person who rotates/separates their dogs is too lazy has likely never dealt with the kind of aggression that warrants these arrangements.  Also likely hasn't experienced the efforts of managing a household like this for more than a two-week dog-sitting stint.  It ain't easy - and considering there are children in this person's household, it complicates an arrangement like this to another degree.

    OP - whatever you choose to do, we wish you good luck and enough resources to manage this situation to the benefit of your family (ie, children) first, dogs second.  Glad you've recognized that the spoiling needs to be curtailed with NILIF - hopefully the Mastiff can learn to adjust her attitude with your firm, fair guidance.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree, Paige & Anne.  Not everyone has the right skills and experience to deal with this type of issue, it does not make them "lazy".  Just because you cannot extract data off a physically damaged hard drive and I can would not make you "lazy". 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Anyone who's actually dealt with it wouldn't call it lazy, that's for sure. As someone who's been doing it for several years now, I can say that it's exhausting to manage two dogs separately. We made this choice as being the best for us and our dogs but I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    Not everyone has the right skills and experience to deal with this type of issue, it does not make them "lazy".  Just because you cannot extract data off a physically damaged hard drive and I can would not make you "lazy". 

     

    LOL, love the analogy. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm dealing with half a dozen dead computers on my desk at the moment, it was the only thing I could think of!

    • Silver

    Thanks everyone for your responses. The consensus I'm getting is that in this situation, given kids in the house, the right thing to do is re-home one.

    We have worked with both a trainer and a behaviorist and will keep doing that. They've taken different approaches on this issue. The behaviorist's opinion is that we should stay a two-dog household, but the trainer's more optimistic take on it had my wife's hopes up. Me, I don't want to face the prospect of separating two 60+ pound dogs tearing each other up in our living room one more time. I turned to this board for some more perspectives and experience. So far you're all confirming the behaviorist's recommendation. 

    The one to go is probably the boxer. With him, there's a known problem. With the puppy, there's a potential problem, but the older female (much to my surprise) has turned out to be a terrific reader of other dogs and very good at backing off when she needs to. With the experience we've just gained and given that she's still a puppy, we ought to be able to nip any issues in the bud this time around. Starting, absolutely, with NILIF.

    I hate doing this. The boxer means a lot to my wife -- she grew up around them. Yeah, his status as her special baby has probably contributed a lot to his current behavior, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier for her to let him go. There's also the question of responsibility. We created this situation, and we made a commitment to each one of our dogs. Now we're forced to break it. On the other hand, the behaviorist says boxers are flying off the shelves at the local shelter. It's not going to be hard to find a good family for him. The behaviorist hasn't expressed any concerns about the boxer around kids in an only-dog family, but I'll double-check with him before we take the next step.

    Again, thanks.

    • Gold Top Dog

    miranadobe
    a well-respected trainer who is consulted for especially aggressive cases who happened to own two females in a pack that at one point had 12 dogs.  Those two are known to fight, at any chance given without the hawkeyes of the owner at all times.  Without her there, or immediate attention to brewing postures, they will fight, and had lived together for 7-8 years.

     

    Maybe that "well respected" trainer should not be as well respected if she cant rehabilitate her own 2 dogs

    miranadobe
    To imply that a person who rotates/separates their dogs is too lazy

     

    I dont remember saying that whatsoever. I do however, remember calling lazy to those who wont do anything to rehabilitate the dogs just because they "might be enemies for life"

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje

    I agree, Paige & Anne.  Not everyone has the right skills and experience to deal with this type of issue, it does not make them "lazy".  Just because you cannot extract data off a physically damaged hard drive and I can would not make you "lazy". 

     

    I just had that happen!  I'm typing this on my new computer, but has my fave geek not been around to help out, I'd have lost a lot of data:-)))  I am NOT lazy.

    The crate and rotate regimen is very difficult in a household with one adult, never mind a family situation with kids running around.  And, as others have said before, it ain't easy.  

    Re homing a dog is not a sin, especially if the owners have reason to believe they cannot handle the situation within their lifestyle.  Espencer, are you volunteering to rehab this Boxer with your own dog at your house????

    • Gold Top Dog

    I didn't comment on this thread before because I didn't have anything very hopeful to say and was hoping someone else did!

    My family was in this situation with two dogs very much smaller than these dogs. The fights were irregular and the dogs would often go months together fine and you'd start thinking you were doing all right, and then all hell would break loose again and the same poor dog would be back at the vets getting stitches, or she'd be lucky and just cowering inside for the rest of the day.

    IMO, you must separate all the time to have any hope of protecting both dogs. In our situation, the dogs were separated all the time for the last few days of the life of the one that had problems, and the other dog was still living in fear for those days. It was no way to live for anyone, and the stakes are so high. We were lucky our dogs were small. The last fight errupted over my mother's lap and she was badly bitten. It is not something to mess around with and try things out with. 

    As a result of my experiences, I have sworn I will never have two female dogs. I have also sworn I will never have a rescue dog, as part of the problem was with the unknown history of the rescue dog. If I ever find myself in this situation again, I will not be trying to get them to live in harmony. IMO, it is just not worth it. One will be rehomed. There is nothing more horrifying than witnessing one of your dogs tearing up the other one, and it's not easy or safe to break them up. Even if you do decide to keep them both and separate at all times, you have to have failsafes in place. My rabbits sometimes stay with my mother's dog, who would eat them if he ever got the chance. So when those animals are in the same house they never see each other and there are two closed doors between them at all times. It's saved them more than once when someone has accidentally left a door ajar. You just can't take risks with animals' lives. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would check with your local boxer rescue for rehoming. Dogs that have issues with other dogs do NOT do well in shelter settings - they are on edge most of the time. Boxers, unfortunately, do have tendancies towards DA.

    Maybe, to make things easier with the rescue, you could foster him (crate and rotate) until they are able to place him with one of their approved adopters. Just a suggstion - not sure where you are located, but this would be the route I would take. I'm assuming your breeder would not take the dog back?

    I wish you the best of luck, rehoming is not easy - but I do feel that it's in the best interest of both dogs and your family at this time.

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    miranadobe
    a well-respected trainer who is consulted for especially aggressive cases who happened to own two females in a pack that at one point had 12 dogs.  Those two are known to fight, at any chance given without the hawkeyes of the owner at all times.  Without her there, or immediate attention to brewing postures, they will fight, and had lived together for 7-8 years.

     

    Maybe that "well respected" trainer should not be as well respected if she cant rehabilitate her own 2 dogs

     Do you have experience living with two dogs that fight? Not just scuffles but realy fight that involve real injuries?

     To the original poster - ITA with the suggestion to rehome the Boxer in an only dog household unless you are willing and capable of always keeping him separated from the other dogs (with kids this gets MUCH more tricky). I second the suggestion to see if it would be possible to place him through a Boxer rescue.

     IMO, once two dogs begin fighting which involves serious injury to each other, there is no "rehabilitation" - I would not ever fully trust such dogs with each other again. Regardless of what anyone tries to tell you, the tendency towards serious dog aggression within the pack tends to stem from genetic tendencies (these tendencies can almost be expected in some breeds) and has very little to do with the owner's relationship with the dogs involved.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I will agree with those intelligent others who have recommended rehoming. It sounds like you have too much on your plate, and rightfully so. Unlike some who can devote their life to dogs and four hours a day to running or training, some people have other full-time jobs and children to attend to, as well as trying to get everything done that needs to be done. There is no shame in rehoming, in fact, one of the most responsible things an owner can do is to recognize that they cannot handle what they have - because it's also the hardest decision. I think it is very unfair to force the young, very large dog, and your other dog to face the stresses of having to be on edge and ready for attack at any time. And you can manage - you can separate them for life, but it's not 100% and mistakes can and do happen.

    This is a quite serious issue once it has come to actual physical injury (as opposed to posturing and noise). And don't for a second think of yourself as lazy because you don't wish to put your family and other dogs at risk in order to fulfill somebody's idealistic world of how things should be. Because frankly, it doesn't work like that. I think the best thing you can do is to rehome, but if you decide you wish to keep all of the dogs together you will have to find a behavioural professional who can help you work through this for the long run, because it will be a lifetime commitment if you choose that route.