Looking into a dog's eyes...

spiritdogs

Fixating and staring at an object is a common sign a dog is about to aggress

Bwahahahaha - this made me spit Vitamin Water all over my keyboard.  All I had was a mental picture of my Sequoyah **STARING** at her f-r-is-b-e-e waiting for me to throw it.  I guess you could consider an Aussie attack on a frisbee as aggression:-)))

I didn't mean every time a dog stares at an object means they are going to aggress, and you cut out the part in my above sentence that said "among other signs too, obviously". 

My beagle fixates and stares at food which is about drive not aggression, but when my Siberian fixates and stares at another dog I know he's "locked on" and it's only a few seconds before he starts to lunge, or tries to grab the other dog. There are many other signs that a dog is about to aggress; hackles up, mouth closed, ears upright/alert, posturing etc as well as fixating on the object that triggers the aggression. Do you disagree that dogs often fixate and stare at the trigger object before they aggress?

Cleo will stare at and fixate on the puppies. It's not an aggro move...it is a watchful motherly move. Her pupils are SO BIG when she does this...it's like she is high...she won't move unless they squeak or cry out, and then she moves immediately to either separate or comfort depending on what's needed. Her face is like...absorbed and fully engaged but also distant...kinda like she is drugged...high on puppy breath is what we call that around here.

I know in humans...the pupils dilate when looking at someone you love...I think it may be similar in dogs...she loves those puppies...and she gets very doe eyed around them...or kittens, or anything small and helpless, nothing they do escapes her notice and she is always ready to step in and give them whatever they seem to need...but it's certainly not aggro...as most here who know Cleo well can agree. 

Here are some pics that may help explain for those not familiar with my Leo and her fondness for small helpless things lol...

This is a TOAD...and she made the same faces at it LOL.

Gina, are you making excuses to post pictures of Cleo being a gorgeous mama?? As if we need excuses. It was interesting to hear about the dilated pupils, though. She luuuurves the warty toadlets. Hehehe.

I take it huski's point was that a stare can be interpreted as a threat, and that's not just with dogs. Most animals dislike being stared at. I had a monkey try to attack me through a cage once because I was looking at it a little too steadily.

That's why I said I think accompanying body language is so important. Kivi stares at Erik and is even all tense just before he does an almighty pounce on him, but there is a softness about his face as he does it, and even in his gaze itself. It's hard to explain, but you know it's play and not aggression. On the other hand, Penny was a master of the "One more step and you will die" looks. She never turned it on a human, and if you stared at her that way she would fall into line pretty freaking fast, but that look was a promise of violence if things didn't change real fast. I've never seen that same look on Kivi's face, but I've seen it on the faces of plenty of other dogs. It's all in the tightness of all your muscles, especially your jaw and eyes.

corvus

On the other hand, Penny was a master of the "One more step and you will die" looks. She never turned it on a human, and if you stared at her that way she would fall into line pretty freaking fast, but that look was a promise of violence if things didn't change real fast. I've never seen that same look on Kivi's face, but I've seen it on the faces of plenty of other dogs. It's all in the tightness of all your muscles, especially your jaw and eyes.

I think this is what some people refer to as "hard eyes"?

 Rascal has a bunch of "innocuous" stares, the most obvious being the, "I am so hungry and neglected, won't you please feed me?" look. He has the "puppy dog eyes" down pat. But when he gives a tight/angry stare, he means business. The sort of "tight" stare (usually accompanied by all of his muscles tensing across his whole body) is usually the "I am preparing to bite you if you move any closer" look.

Rascal is definitely uncomfortable with all direct eye contact from humans, though, regardless of the accompanying body language. Unless he thinks it's an invitation for rambunctious play, he will either get very aggressive-defensive (barking, growling, etc.) or very submissive (looking away, yawning, lifting up a leg, making himself smaller) when someone looks directly at him. We've even had trouble while he's riding in the car, if we're at a stop light and someone in the car next to us looks over at him. We've gotten better about him not responding quite so defensive/aggressively, but it still definitely makes him uncomfortable.

Poor little dog wishes he were some ugly something so people would stop looking at him all the time. 

rwbeagles

Her pupils are SO BIG when she does this...it's like she is high

This happens to Chuck too when i'm in the bed and he jumps to it because he wants to play with my hands. His pupils are dilated because he is really interested, when i see his pupils i know that he is fixated on wanting to play and he means it. Once i let him know at that moment that i dont want to play his eyes go back to normal and i know the excitement level has been lowered down

huski

spiritdogs

Fixating and staring at an object is a common sign a dog is about to aggress

Bwahahahaha - this made me spit Vitamin Water all over my keyboard.  All I had was a mental picture of my Sequoyah **STARING** at her f-r-is-b-e-e waiting for me to throw it.  I guess you could consider an Aussie attack on a frisbee as aggression:-)))

 

I didn't mean every time a dog stares at an object means they are going to aggress, and you cut out the part in my above sentence that said "among other signs too, obviously". 

My beagle fixates and stares at food which is about drive not aggression, but when my Siberian fixates and stares at another dog I know he's "locked on" and it's only a few seconds before he starts to lunge, or tries to grab the other dog. There are many other signs that a dog is about to aggress; hackles up, mouth closed, ears upright/alert, posturing etc as well as fixating on the object that triggers the aggression. Do you disagree that dogs often fixate and stare at the trigger object before they aggress?

I really think that we can't separate the stare from the dog's other body language.  I think it was Brian Kilcommons who once told me "read the whole dog."  We may differ on some of our training methods, but I'm convinced he's right on that one.  Otherwise, those toadlets would probably be inside Cleo, not outside;-)  

BTW, Gina, a little OT, but you have to stop posting Leo pix.  I find myself wanting one;-)  Maybe you could satisfy me by finding someone with a Leo pup to come to my puppy class - it's been about three years since I have had one in class:-((

spiritdogs

I really think that we can't separate the stare from the dog's other body language.  I think it was Brian Kilcommons who once told me "read the whole dog."  We may differ on some of our training methods, but I'm convinced he's right on that one.  Otherwise, those toadlets would probably be inside Cleo, not outside;-) 

Of course it's important to read the whole dog, which is why I said that a fixated stare is just one of several signs. I'm not trying to single it out as the sole sign a dog is about to aggress, I was merely pointing out it is ONE OF the signs, and that it can be threatening/aggressive body language.

Bruister

I am one of those people that tends looks straight into the eyes of a dog, like I do people.  At the same time, my experience is that most dogs look straight into my eyes.   If I am asked to help out with an aggressive dog, I am careful, but eventually eye contact has to happen and I guess we slowly negotiate; timing is everything. 

Hm, may be i am an exception. I avoid looking into others eyes, it is like looking into the sun for many other people, and do make eye contact with my dogs but not by looking through them. You can read about stuff like that in some of Temple Grandin's books. She isn't too keen on eye contact too. I am one of those people that dogs choose, they really seek me out . 

I do work with aggressive dogs occasionally, but it is not my choice. I have had no difficulties there.

poodleOwned

Bruister

I am one of those people that tends looks straight into the eyes of a dog, like I do people.  At the same time, my experience is that most dogs look straight into my eyes.   If I am asked to help out with an aggressive dog, I am careful, but eventually eye contact has to happen and I guess we slowly negotiate; timing is everything. 

 

Hm, may be i am an exception. I avoid looking into others eyes, it is like looking into the sun for many other people, and do make eye contact with my dogs but not by looking through them. You can read about stuff like that in some of Temple Grandin's books. She isn't too keen on eye contact too. I am one of those people that dogs choose, they really seek me out . 

I have given some thought to your post.  If the eyes are the window to our soul, and as stated by optometrists , a key to our overall health; then dogs are no different than humans.  Looking into a person's eyes or a dog's eyes is not like looking directly at the sun.  The sun makes you squint and it causes damage.  Looking into a dog's eyes, is however like looking into truth...which I think is what dogs do with us.  When their eyes search ours, it is an amazing and rewarding experience.   

Bruister

I have given some thought to your post.  If the eyes are the window to our soul, and as stated by optometrists , a key to our overall health; then dogs are no different than humans.  Looking into a person's eyes or a dog's eyes is not like looking directly at the sun.  The sun makes you squint and it causes damage.  Looking into a dog's eyes, is however like looking into truth...which I think is what dogs do with us.  When their eyes search ours, it is an amazing and rewarding experience.   

 

HI

I will explain a little further. Sometimes in dog training it pays to just see a behaviour as a behaviour. For eye contact i tend to side with Chris Bach and see it as a desirable taught behaviour that makes teaching a whole lot of things really easy, rather than a by product of being a wonderful center of attention that Kathy Sdao would suggest :) Both my dogs think solid eye contact gets them things. When **** happens, i get two pairs of eyes looking at me...

I will extend this further. Often humans put value on actions from other humans that they have no right to put value on.It encourages predijuice .This business of judging others by eye contact is one of them, and tends to judge others poorly for no apparent reason. It is a part of folklore that a man should be able ot look another in the eye, it is meant to be a mesure of the integrity of the man.

Well it is a legend. There are many cultures where it is rude to do so, and at least one syndrome Apserger's where it is common for people to actively avoid eye contact, so much so that it is often an in joke for Aspies . Now if you wanted to also meet a grouping of people that  in general are shocking liars and prefer to tell the truth (sometimes to the nth degree) then you would have to pick an Aspie. Temple Grandin as well as writing books on animal behaviour, wrote "Talking with Pictures" which is her life as a person on the Autism spectrum, of which Apserger's is. It is reccomended reading.

It is not optomerists that suggest that eyes tell about our overall health, it is another set of alternative health practicioners who do. If i put my sceptics hat on, it would probably be dificult to use that method as a relaible scientific diagnostic tool.

poodleOwned

Bruister

 

HI

I will explain a little further. Sometimes in dog training it pays to just see a behaviour as a behaviour. For eye contact i tend to side with Chris Bach and see it as a desirable taught behaviour that makes teaching a whole lot of things really easy, rather than a by product of being a wonderful center of attention that Kathy Sdao would suggest :) Both my dogs think solid eye contact gets them things. When **** happens, i get two pairs of eyes looking at me...

I will extend this further. Often humans put value on actions from other humans that they have no right to put value on.It encourages predijuice .This business of judging others by eye contact is one of them, and tends to judge others poorly for no apparent reason. It is a part of folklore that a man should be able ot look another in the eye, it is meant to be a mesure of the integrity of the man.

Well it is a legend. There are many cultures where it is rude to do so, and at least one syndrome Apserger's where it is common for people to actively avoid eye contact, so much so that it is often an in joke for Aspies . Now if you wanted to also meet a grouping of people that  in general are shocking liars and prefer to tell the truth (sometimes to the nth degree) then you would have to pick an Aspie. Temple Grandin as well as writing books on animal behaviour, wrote "Talking with Pictures" which is her life as a person on the Autism spectrum, of which Apserger's is. It is reccomended reading.

It is not optomerists that suggest that eyes tell about our overall health, it is another set of alternative health practicioners who do. If i put my sceptics hat on, it would probably be dificult to use that method as a relaible scientific diagnostic tool.

 

 

hi poodleowned... thanks for your response.  I'm not sure that we can find common ground but it is great that we have the opportunity to try.  For example,  I think if your dogs think that by looking into your eyes they can get something, it is a good thing. (do we disagree here?)  When I am focused on my work and my dog comes into the office butt wagging and looking into my eyes, I am reminded ....oops, time for his carrot juice.  

Culturally, I am very privileged to be a non First Nation person with many First Nation friends so I get  lots of  opportunities to absorb the teachings of the Coast Salish People.   One of the teachings that I have the deepest regard for is when an Elder shared with me that a person she had been speaking with was looking into her eyes and trying to take her power away...whew....it was her way to discuss intimidation and it totally opened my eyes to the regularly discussed topic of eye contact. 

But...back to dogs.  It is not disrespectful for a dog to look into the eyes of a human or for a human to look into the eyes of a dog. Then back to humans and dogs....once trust is established, it is abnormal in my opinion NOT to look into each others eyes. 

I appreciate what you had to say about those folks with Asbergers, but my thinking is that it does not relate to our experience with dogs unless we have Asbergers.  It does however give me food for thought regarding the value of therapy dogs with those folks who do have asbergers.

Always learning....

Totally OT, Bruister, but I bet we could have some interesting conversations, since I have native heritage and am part of several native groups here on the east coast.  I have found, in speaking to elders from this area that a lot of the teachings are similar... and I was struck, this week, by the "sweat lodge" accident in Arizona, because I've heard, on more than one occasion, that selling ceremony is VERY dangerous.  Guess it was;-)

I think we need to separate "looking into a dogs eyes" and staring at them.  If someone looks at my dog and asks her something or speaks to her she's fine with that.  If someone other than my husband or I were to just stare at her and not say anything then she'd act differently. 

 I had a situation today with the Bobster.  We had a visit from a friend that truly gets dogs, but...because she trusts me, she was prepared to completely trust the Bobster.  I explained to her that he is learning his place with humans and that it would be better for her to produce boundaries rather than to extend boundaries; which she did. 

Once she set the boundaries, Bob was quick to respond and he was quick to settle...when she left they had great eye contact. Never a dull moment....

 Willowchow, regarding the stare...yes...sometimes I am blown away that some people stare into the eyes of a dog that they do not know.