Appreciating Breed Differences

I'm not sure that I can contribute all that much.  But, with my herders, I too have had to teach them that no, it is not ok to herd humans, children included.  Unfortunately, about the only thing that they CAN herd is one another, but at least they have that to satisfy their inbred needs.

that is **always** what intrigues David and I to switch breeds every time because we both find it so fascinating what they're all good at.

But I think the crux of the answer to your question lies with the fact that we don't want to completely extinguish or do away with those breed tendencies but merely to contain them a bit -- and in our case, at least, get them to make better choices beyond that.

Case in point -- (how fortuitous).  Luna's been with us four years and a few months now.  I'm just going to give up and call her a "hound mix".  But in the nearly 23 years I've lived here NEVER has a dog jumped my fence.  Dug under?  Yeah (and been reinforced) but jumped?  Nope.  (chain link -- a`1```bout 4 1/2 feet high - my dogs historically aren't huge)

This morning I let them all out and tried to go to the bathroom -- Luna began having a barkfest so since I couldn't quiet her from inside I went to let her in -- and Billy and Tink came in (Kee wasn't out) and Luna didn't come.  I wasn't dressed so David went out and came back in "She's NOT in the yard -- but I hear her baying!"  Sooo off we went in separate cars.

Couldn't find her.  I heard her a couple of times from a couple of blocks over I thot -- make the guys at the fire station aware, a cop I passed (loose dogs are NOT cool in my neighborhood and I wanted them to know this was an escape and I was looking).  But David and I had compared notes via phone and her baying seemed -- nervous and scared - so I hadn't a clue what she got into.

David finally calls me on the cell and says ... "Luna is IN OUR BACK YARD!!"

No, he hadn't missed her (because he heard her bay from a ways away while he was IN the back looking for her).  But she apparently chased a critter OUT of the yard over the fence ... but then got her little self scared (cos she knows escaping is a no no) and she CLIMBED the fence to get back in.

Not a clue ... absolutely NONE ... *where* she got over the fence and I'm beyond astonished that she managed to climb back IN.  She would have been drivey enough chasing the crittur OUT of the yard to have managed a leap that high.  I've seen her in action (she's SO long but dang she's strong) but ... "outside" is apparently scarey.  And she was motivated enough to want back IN the yard.  I suspect she was chasing a black racer (and given the fact she's learned the "Pugtona" from Tink -- she's gotten unbelievably fast for a short-legged dog).  I find no marks on her from any sort of a bite. 

But rather than come up to one of our cars (when she knows the road is a major no no even if you escape) she figured out how to get herself back in the yard (the more acceptable "choice" for her).  But her nose led her OUT of the yard ... but sheer desire to please motivated her to get back IN the yard.  I think that's pretty interesting.

David and I typically talk about "when the *dog* takes over" -- meaning when sheer instinct and breed 'need' is in control.  The hound following their nose, the mostlie sheltie "herding" (even pine needles upon occasion -- anything that moved), as opposed to when they use that part of their brain where learned responses kick in and begin to govern that pure dog instinct.

I can almost SEE Luna's face ... she was likely over that fence to 'find' whatever had disappeared on her ... before she even realized she WAS over it.  But once she heard us calling and heard/smelled the cars looking for her suddenly the cognitive side exerted its influence and she decided she wanted to get back "in" rather than being found outside (that's a pretty complicated choice to be honest -- that was Luna CHOOSING which way to proceed, and she was right.  She didn't get scolded.  She was shaken enough on her own -- I'd rather leave her with "loving concern" on my part.  It obviously got her home this time).

I gotta work on this more later -- this didn't convey all I wanted it to

spiritdogs

why are we so bent on changing what we know is hard wired in our dogs?

spiritdogs

Fortunately, today I have an almost four year old dog that does NOT chase and nip little girls on skateboards,

Obviously because 'hard wired' behaviours are not always acceptable behaviours, as to your own example.

When my Aussie was a puppy he was an ankle biter and happily greeted anyone who came to our door by grabbing on to their pant leg, foot or most annoyingly - their nylon stockings. Because of the restricted area and the general excitement created at the moment, Kobi was all but impossible to calm to a point where I could successfully interrupt or redirect. In an effort to save my visitors from the sharp needle teeth, I would simply give him a toy to hold. Kobi would hold that toy and run in circles like a crazy little puppy.

He eventually learned his manners but 'til the day he left us, Kobi always picked up some object or another before he ran to greet people at or door.  

I actually have more problems with people making assumptions about my dogs or trying to excuse behaviors based on supposed breed traits than I have issues accepting them.  For example, to me, chasing people and nipping at them is not "herding" it is being a puppy and mouthing whether it's my GSD or my cousin's Coton de Tulear.  My GSDs might do something that someone else would excuse as a herding behavior or just being protective of me or my property but more often than not it's bad manners.  I would say that in my experience, the clinginess is more significant than any "herding" or "protective" behavior.

After careful consideration my buddies got their first Border Collie.  I still had my very laid back but playfull Bullmastiff.  We were used to having our dogs play together and thought we could continue to do this.  The moment they started to play, the Border (PUPPY) started herding (nipping) at the adult BM's heels. The kids were joking that he thought my dog was a cow and I have to admit it did look really funny.  We used balls to engage the Border, which worked  to give the BM a break, but there was no enjoyment in it for my dog, so after a couple of visits we didn't pursue it. I will always remember him looking at me with that "not again, mom" look.  Fond memories of his expressive beautiful face.

I 'm a big believer in learning about breed traits in terms of what to expect.  My JRT has been completely different from the dogs I was more familiar with in terms of training and owning.  He's made me a better trainer because I had to really think of how to motivate him, rather than try to control his natural tendencies using the same methods I might have used on a Lab, for example. The breed is not for people who aren't ready for a dog who is hard wired to be fearless while also being the sweetest little dogs on the planet.  Not biased, not me. lol   Reading a breed description doesn't come close to preparing a person for some breeds' specialized traits.   Get to know the dogs by meeting and spending as much time around them as possible. Dog shows, exhibitions, etc.  It's also a good way to meet people in that breed.  It's all a process and impulse purchases of some breeds often leads to disaster, especially for the dog.

I'm fostering a GSD puppy and she is also "learning" me about her breed traits.  What a character!  I am NOT falling in love, NOT. lol Edited to add that I am trying desperately not to fall in love and failing.

 I don't really have much to contribute here but will say that in general in today's world we (the universal we) are much less tolerant of differences in anything.  I am an educator and therapist who is now training and coaching professionals and it is always startling to me how narrow most people's view is.

As for dogs I have always, always been around labs. I've known a few GSD's well too but really dogs = labs.  Bugsy is so different than any lab I have ever known that despite some people saying he looks lab at times whatever his dominant breed is - it is NOT lab!  I have had to learn so very much about dog breeds/behaviors/training etc. because what has worked for all the labs doesn't work for him.  At times it is overwhelming but all in all I have enjoyed becoming a much more knowledgeable and creative trainer because of him.

JackieG

I'm fostering a GSD puppy and she is also "learning" me about her breed traits.  What a character!  I am NOT falling in love, NOT. lol Edited to add that I am trying desperately not to fall in love and failing.

kpwlee

- the longer she is there the more difficult it is going to be - I really think that if you are sure it isn't the right thing to do (keep her) then you should let a rescue sort things out.  I know I would be attached so quickly she would never leave.  I'm sending all the vibes I've got for you all.

I talked to a woman with a GSD rescue just a few minutes ago.  She can take her by Wednesday. I contacted a few rescues fairly early on but they never responded.  I don't know how I missed the one in Austin.  I will keep in touch with the rescue once they take her in.  DH and I have mixed feelings but I know that she'll be better off in a home devoted to what she needs in terms of training and time committment.  I have already shed a few tears but I never planned on keeping her and that makes it a little easier.  Twister says "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out, puppy". lol

Reading a breed description doesn't come close to preparing a person for some breeds' specialized traits.

There's always a salient point in your posts, Jackie. 

Breed descriptions are almost always written by someone who actually likes the traits their breed displays...(yeah, I actually like my bossy Aussie).  

Not hard to see how easy it is to euphemize "may nip at children's heels" into "strong herding instinct" so that the breed retains its sterling character, is it?  I do like it, however, when breeders are honest about the downside of those instincts so that puppy buyers don't make horrible mistakes.  Unlike the Internet puppy mills that send such puppies out to the highest bidder with a Visa card without a thought as to what becomes of dogs that exhibit their natural breed propensities in households ill equipped to deal with them.

We humans consider nipping at childrens' heels "bad behavior" - but it's simply instinctive behavior, inappropriately directed (for lack of sheep or cows) - it's our job to provide an appropriate substitute outlet and help the dog make right decisions about what kind of behavior will be acceptable if he wants to live in civilized human society.  But, if breeders, shelters or rescues aren't honest or knowledgeable about the downside of their breed's traits, people don't have the information they need to do that, or to even make a sensible choice of dogs in the first place.  We've all heard it....

Newbie terrier owner: "How do I get him to stop digging?" 

Newbie Husky owner: "How do I get him to stop pulling?"

Newbie Sheltie owner: "How do I get her to stop barking at everything?"

Lol, would have been easier to get a different breed maybe...?

So true, Anne.  A GSD is supposed to be aloof and indifferent towards strangers (that does not mean fearful or aggressive) and they generally aren't super outgoing or accepting of other dogs not in their "pack", but I hear so many stories about people taking their GSDs to the dog park and wondering why their dog either is glued to their side, wants nothing to do with anyone, or is snarky at the other dogs and people.  I was once asked to elaborate what I meant when I said Nikon is not a dog park kind of dog, by someone who's dog is known for bullying other dogs b/c the owners continually try to make it into this super friendly dog and it's just not.

 I don't really have any stories yet. Finnish Lapphunds are herders, but my Lapphund is a bit broken and the only breed trait that is really strong in him is just being a teddy bear, and I can absolutely deal with that! He does still tend to try to bite me when he's very excited and I'm running with him, which I have blamed on myself for not really understanding. Putting on the brakes as soon as his teeth touch me is kind of the result he was looking for, and it took me a loooooong time to realise that and I still haven't really landed on a strategy that is going to work REALLY well. Putting on the brakes just before he bites me is a stop-gap measure that works well enough, and it's true that he does it less and less as he's growing older, but I'd really like to find a way to handle it without depending on toys that he is allowed to grab and while still having fun with him.

I desperately want a hunting dog. I have always wanted one. I can't say why, really, considering I love my wildlife and my pet bunnies and don't like it when dogs kill things needlessly, but there is something about the way a hunting dog holds themselves and interacts with other dogs and people and there is a quality about them that just says "that's a real dog" to me. I would desperately like to try to make it work with a hunting dog, but I have so far baulked on two occasions and for all I know I will never get one. Why are we attracted to breeds we know intellectually will not fit in with every aspect of the life we want to lead? I have no idea. I just know that I can't have a serious dog that knows how to hunt and kill without it actually trying to hunt and kill at some point. What do I want more? The personality of a hunting dog or a dog that won't hunt? I can't have both in the one dog.

 Absolutely. I am constantly aware that what I am asking of them is completely AGAINST their nature, especially Emma. I am not sure where they keep the records of dog show entries, and I didn't keep a record of all of her NQs, but it took at LEAST 20 tries to get her RAE (which requires 10 legs, qualifying in advanced and excellent on the same day). I enjoyed every one of those times out, with her. She is a terrier. She was bred to work, independantly. I was asking her to do something COMPLETELY against her nature. Work WITH me, off leash (which is a no-no), in the middle of a large group of people and dogs. Sometimes, there was someone throwing a dumb bell in the next ring. That was VERY hard for her!  The day after she got her RAE, she NQ'd. I laughed, and the poor judge looked like he was scared I might be insane.

And Ena? Ena is naturally a shy dog. I ask her to be my outgoing shop dog, every day. I tell her, several times a day, to, "Go say hi!" to various humans and dogs. She obliges me, every time. 

It amazes me, their willingness to do what I ask of them, even when it's something that's been bred OUT of them. They're incredible. 

Liesje

I actually have more problems with people making assumptions about my dogs or trying to excuse behaviors based on supposed breed traits than I have issues accepting them.

Totally agree with this.

Whilst we should all understand the instincts that drive our dogs we have to be careful not to make excuses for bad behaviour.

I get sick of husky owners telling me or being told by others that they should expect their dog to pull on the leash and put up with it, because "that's the breed".

Any dog can be taught to walk nicely on the leash, it's not hard to do. Siberians aren't dumb, there are many that are taught the difference between walking on a collar and leash and working in harness. I don't expect my husky to pull on the leash. Many dogs pull on the leash, not just breeds bred for sledding. Pulling on the leash is not a breed trait. It's a training issue. A Siberian will only pull on the leash if he's been trained that's the way to get where he wants to go... if he's been taught pulling doesn't work, and walking on a loose leash does, he will walk nicely on the leash. I would never call pulling on the leash a breed trait, nor something owners need to be aware of as a downside to the breed. There are many other things I would caution owners against, but pulling on the leash just isn't one of them - it's a training problem and one that affects many dogs of many breeds.

My scenthound is a bit different. Obviously, I expect her to have a strong instinct to scent. But, I also expect her to give me focus when I command it because that's how I've trained her. Proofing this can take time, but it's certainly not impossible.

Pulling on the leash is not a breed trait.

Actually it is, or rather it is a trait of ALL breeds.  Dogs are not born with leashes on, but they are born wanting to walk where they want;-)  But, whether you like it or not, training is often harder for dogs bred to pull sleds, dogs bred to cart, and dogs bred to be insensitive to pain, or for independent hunting or tracking.  Conversely, while herders often pull, too, it's pretty hard to get rid of them when the leash is off, because their inherent desire is to be with the human.  None of these breed traits are written in stone, as Corvus so aptly pointed out with her comment about her herding dog being "broken."  I have a friend whose Shelties are "broken" too, in that they just stand and look at sheep - no desire to go after them whatsoever.  But, the fact is that most Shelties will go after sheep, given the chance.  And, most Huskies will pull if they are left to their own devices.  You are correct that to reverse that tendency IS a training issue.  But, if you are someone who is insistent on a great heel, why would you prefer Huskies over German Shepherds or Goldens?  The agility JRT's are wonderful in that they were able to title, but it would have been easier to do it with a Border Collie.  If you want to hunt ducks, do you go get a Havanese, or would a Lab be more practical?  That rhetorical question is the puzzlement for trainers, who wish that people would assess their life style, what the want the dog to do, and their level of commitment and skill, before choosing a breed, rather than after.  It's the constant trying to fit a square peg into a round hole that makes for neurotic dogs and dissatisfied owners.  Of course, I am more speaking about the general dog owning public, and not those of us who appreciate a training challenge for one reason or another.  I think you have to admit that there are quite a few dogs sitting in shelters solely because the qualities of their breed didn't match the expectations of their owners, who may not have had the skill, or even the desire, to mold them otherwise.