Is there conflict in balance?

In this case are we assuming that a correction =  a punishment?  Because then I can't really answer the question, at least from my perspective.

There is a difference in using conflict in training and creating conflict between you and your dog.  I guess I'm not really sure which one we are talking about.

In general I would say if you are doing something that compromises the dog's trust and your relationship then your method is too strong/too aversive.  I don't see how anyone could argue with that. 

corvus

He went on to say that to use both punishments and rewards doesn't work well

He would have to speak with Ian Dunbar who actually thinks the opposite. I'm afraid that we could engage in a war of semantics again regarding what is punishment/intimidation.

How do we really know we lost our dog's trust? Runs away from you? 

Yeah I think the problem is everyone's dog is different, not that it even needs to be said.  What Nikon is exposed to in training would be nothing short of abuse for Coke or Kenya.

I think what "works well" is developing clear communication with the dog, so the dog clearly understands how to get what it wants (games, treats, affection, freedoms...).  Depending on the dog, this could happen any number of methods or combinations of methods.

corvus

What's the difference between looking for something to punish and something to reward and deciding what to click and what not to click? 

A huge difference, IMO.  I never LOOK for something to punish.  I LOOK for something to reward.  I have no problem deciding what to reward; I reward behavior I want.  I either ignore or correct behavior I don't want, depending on the behavior. 

Liesje

Yeah I think the problem is everyone's dog is different

I agree, i can body block my dog and he will stop. I have body block shy dogs and they get the tail between the legs and lay down showing their bellys. I dont use an attitude whatsoever when i do it, i just put myself in between. Is body blocking an intimidate technique? No for my dog, should i no use it because it is for other dogs?

Same can happen with voice re directions

 Scientifically speaking, a punishment is an action that stops behavior.  So, in that context, a correction is a punishment.  Note that I am not suggesting that punishment is necessarily cruel, it's just not very effective usually.  Here's why - a punishment that does not stop a behavior (permanently) is merely an annoyance to the dog, so the dog decides perhaps to do the behavior anyway, since it's rewarding to the dog in the moment.  Many people continue, on a daily basis to annoy their dogs, with no permanent eradication of the problem behavior.  That isn't "balance", it's continuing insane behavior while expecting a different result;-)  If you have to correct your dog continually for the same behavior, your dog is not paying any attention to you - so your options are to increase the punishment till it works, or try a different strategy (obviously, I prefer the latter).  A trainer who wishes to use punishment (in the +P context) must decide whether he/she is willing to make the correction severe enough to extinguish the undesired behavior for good.  Personally, that is where the danger lies in having a trusting relationship with a dog.  If a behavior is so upsetting to the owner that they must punish it, do they either annoy a dog daily without the result they want, or do they issue the level of punishment necessary to eradicate the behavior?  Choose the latter, and the relationship may be damaged forever, whether you expect that to happen or not.  Choose the former, and you will be "correcting" the dog a lot over its lifetime, with a less than satisfactory result.  Most people aren't willing to issue a severe correction, so they continue to tolerate lapses that they "must" correct.  Oy.  I think that if people would garner all the patience they can, in the beginning of their relationship with a dog, and choose "extinction" as the method by which to eradicate problem behavior, while rewarding those alternative behaviors that please them, they would have, in the end, a much better trained dog, and a companion who respects them as well as obeys them.  Not only that, the dog is more willing to learn new behaviors, because the odds are good that he won't receive a punishment for being wrong, only a signal that no reward is coming, so "try another behavior" till you get it right.  Funny how humans think they trust dogs, but aren't willing to trust that a dog can, if given half a chance, make good choices about which behavior pays off with his human companion.

spiritdogs

Scientifically speaking, a punishment is an action that stops behavior. 

Do you have a link to confirm this "Scientifically speaking"? So basically the action of putting a leash on a dog is a punishment because that stops a dog from running away while walking? Neutering the dog is a punishment because stops mating behavior? The action of placing the dog on a kennel during meals time is a punishment because stops dogs from eating eachother's food? Is clicker a punishment because stops behavior too? Sure you tell the dog to sit instead but are you stopping the jumping yes or no? Therefore Is giving commands to a dog a punishment because you are stoping the behavior?

spiritdogs

a punishment that does not stop a behavior (permanently) is merely an annoyance to the dog, so the dog decides perhaps to do the behavior anyway, since it's rewarding to the dog in the moment.

Is not that clicker training? the first click wont stop the behavior but it's rewarding to the dog anyway

So once again, how do you know that you dont have a trusting relationship with your dog when that happens?

 Jeez, you really have no idea what clicker training is, do you?  The click is not supposed to stop a behavior, it simply signals that the behavior the dog just performed is the correct one, and therefore, will be followed by his reward.  We don't "stop" behavior, we allow it to extinguish itself by not producing any reward for the dog.  Dogs generally continue to perform only those behaviors that work. 

If you need a definition for punishment: (Miltenberger, 2004) 

But, perhaps the better question is, why do some people believe so strongly that punishment works, and completely dismiss that extinction also works???

espencer

I'm afraid that we could engage in a war of semantics again regarding what is punishment/intimidation.

How do we really know we lost our dog's trust? Runs away from you? 

Well, no, we don't have to. Punishment has a pretty specific meaning in behavioural science, that being that it results in a decrease in the behaviour after you do it/use it. If it didn't decrease the behaviour it's not a punishment. And it has to be voluntary. Putting a leash on a dog does not in a behavioural sense decrease anything. It physically prevents it.

You will never know if you have lost your dog's trust. At least, not until you raise a dog without punishment. I haven't managed it yet, but I definitely noticed a difference in the way Kivi acts around me compared to the way Penny did. Kivi is a soft dog just like Penny was, but he's far more confident around me than Penny was. Penny knew people sometimes weren't safe. Kivi's experience tells him people are perfectly safe. There is a definite difference to me, but you won't know for yourself unless you try both ways, will you?

I was talking about inner conflict. Like, can you look for things to punish and things to reward at the same time? Is that sustainable? Do you end up pairing them all the time so you get punishment then reward? Do you find you can easily switch from finding things to punish to finding things to reward or vice versa?

Personally, I am finding that the more I concentrate on rewarding the more I forget about punishing. So for me at least it seems to be true. I never had a lot of trouble when I was pairing them (correction, then reward), but that's a habit of one going after the other. I might not have been conscious of it, but reward always followed punishment, so I was mostly looking for something to punish. I was reacting to something I didn't like with punishment. I find that now when my dog does something I respond differently. I think of something I can ask them to do that would be incompatible with what they are doing now. It's much easier than I always imagined. It turns out that coming to me and sitting quietly is something my dogs are generally very good at doing and it's imcompatible with just about everything, really.

Grey Stafford did suggest that it was confusing for the animal to not know whether you were going to punish them or correct them. I can believe that for most animals, but not sure about dogs. 

corvus

You will never know if you have lost your dog's trust. At least, not until you raise a dog without punishment.

Sorry, but I'm not sure we can every know anything about our dog's 100% because they cannot speak and do not communicate like us or have the same motivations as us.  

We all have very different experiences which is why I will always agree to disagree.  I have seen dogs that have been physically punished in training who are stable, stound, outgoing, social, confident dogs.  I have also seen dogs that not only are not punished, but are not really exposed to any formal training at all and are downright spoiled who are fearful, skittish, nervy fear biter dogs lacking in confidence and trust.  If I have learned *one* thing from owning and training dogs it is that no matter how hard you try you cannot change a dog's temperament.  They are what they are and it's your responsibility to use the right tools and methods to bring out the best in that dog.

You have to take what is in front of you and build from there.  I don't mind discussing various methods and the "psychology" behind it but no one will tell me what is right or wrong for my dog or presume to know the level of our bond and trust based on a few statements made by another person who has likewise never met my dogs or seen us train.  I have learned infinitely more about my dogs by actually working and training them with people decades more experienced than myself.  I enjoy discussing it very much but the reality is that I learn very little and take very little from theories discussed in books and professional papers.

Grey Stafford did suggest that it was confusing for the animal to not know whether you were going to punish them or correct them. I can believe that for most animals, but not sure about dogs.

I think what is confusing for dogs is not knowing how they can get to what they want.   I think temperament (something that as much as we like to think we can control, we cannot) dictates how a dog will react to a reward or a correction, but those are not inherently confusing, it is the human that makes things confusing when the timing is wrong or the appropriate reward or correction is not being used.  I don't think we can excuse ourselves by trying to say this is not the way an animal thinks.

I was talking about inner conflict. Like, can you look for things to punish and things to reward at the same time? Is that sustainable? Do you end up pairing them all the time so you get punishment then reward? Do you find you can easily switch from finding things to punish to finding things to reward or vice versa?

I don't think I've ever met any trainer that goes out *looking* for things to punish.  To me, looking for things to reward is a no brainer.  Looking for things to punish sounds just plain ignorant and grossly unfair for the dog.

I don't think I've ever met any trainer that goes out *looking* for things to punish.  To me, looking for things to reward is a no brainer.  Looking for things to punish sounds just plain ignorant and grossly unfair for the dog.

Maybe not, but judging from the number of times I hear ordinary pet owners say "no" or yank their dogs' leashes, the temptation to punish seems a lot more entrenched than the desire to reward good behavior and let poor behavior extinguish.  Trainers are not the general public - but I think we have an obligation to educate people that the fastest way to get a good result is to make it worth the dog's while to do what the human wants, instead of shoveling poop against the tide by using ineffectual words and actions because someone somewhere wanted us to act like "alpha dogs."

You may not be able to change a dog's temperament, but you CAN change your relationship to the dog.  And, you can maximize the dog's potential, whether it's very talented or not so.

spiritdogs

Jeez, you really have no idea what clicker training is, do you?

Wrong, i used clicker training to extinguish my dog's resource guarding when food was falling on the kitchen's floor, granted was not my first pick and i used the word "no" instead of "leave it" but it worked

spiritdogs

But, perhaps the better question is, why do some people believe so strongly that punishment works, and completely dismiss that extinction also works???

That's why i mentioned semantics, for some people what you believe is punishment is not for others, what you consider "punishment" actually worked for me. What happened with "dogs do what works"? Well, what i do works for my dog. For prey drive in the street leash corrections work (not food). For resource guarding in the kitchen, food without distractions worked (no leash corrections).

To put his pulling harness, bathe him, cut his nails and hair food works. To stop him from wanting to play on the bed food does not work, body posture does

spiritdogs

I don't think I've ever met any trainer that goes out *looking* for things to punish.  To me, looking for things to reward is a no brainer.  Looking for things to punish sounds just plain ignorant and grossly unfair for the dog.

Maybe not, but judging from the number of times I hear ordinary pet owners say "no" or yank their dogs' leashes, the temptation to punish seems a lot more entrenched than the desire to reward good behavior and let poor behavior extinguish. 

But then we are making judgments of training methods based on people using them completely wrong?  To me that doesn't make sense, like judging clicker training based on the people who think the click is some kind of command and aren't even using a reward.

Liesje

spiritdogs

I don't think I've ever met any trainer that goes out *looking* for things to punish.  To me, looking for things to reward is a no brainer.  Looking for things to punish sounds just plain ignorant and grossly unfair for the dog.

Maybe not, but judging from the number of times I hear ordinary pet owners say "no" or yank their dogs' leashes, the temptation to punish seems a lot more entrenched than the desire to reward good behavior and let poor behavior extinguish. 

 

But then we are making judgments of training methods based on people using them completely wrong?  To me that doesn't make sense, like judging clicker training based on the people who think the click is some kind of command and aren't even using a reward.

I didn't make that comment to disagree with you - I don't know too many trainers who deliberately do that either, although I hang out with mostly positive trainers, so maybe my sphere is limited.  But, the general public is getting this stuff somewhere...

I do not make my judgments about training methods based on people's incorrect use of them, I was merely stating that the public seems more inclined to punish their dogs more often than they reward them.  I make my judgments based on what I have learned through investigation, experience, and results (although, certainly, results are obtained with many methods that I still don't recommend because of the negatives associated with them).   Every now and then, I still get someone say to me (the trainer, remember) that their uncle used to knee their dog in the chest and it worked.  It's hard to buck the myths, and argue against something that "works" - my hope every day is that I just reach one more person who will elect to use extinction and not their knees...

You are obviously not the average dog owner, and I'm sure that, even though I might not use your methods, you try to be fair about your corrections, and employ the mildest that are effective.  But, not everyone does that, and most of them confuse the heck out of the dog, who is then punished for being confused.  Hence the argument that the general public does far less harm to their dogs by using positives than by using punishment.