Questions on Ian Dunbar's book

Angelique

Good points Kim.

The problem I've seen with oversocialization, is it often ends up in boundary frustration because the dogs were conditioned to meet-and-greet too much, and rarely (if ever) taught to ignore, accept boundaries, or even get told "no" in the presense of other dogs. 

Standard Classical Conditioning gone wrong, and then often misdiagnosed as "reactivity".

The worse cases are dogs who were "socialized" by going to the dog park when they were young. The end result by the time the dog turns two, is the dog has been conditioned to become excited and expect interaction every time it sees another dog. By two years of age, they are asserting themselves as adults and things have become more serious.

Then the owners wonder why their dog who was "socialized like crazy", has all of a sudden become aggressive when faced with the boundary of the leash.

And I can see your points, there, Angelique.One of those cases of not being sure what you reinforce. I've never thought Shadow should love and get along with every dog in the world and the object of my socialization exercises is that he listen to me. That even in a tense situation or exciting situation, that he will listen to me. But I don't constantly force him into situations. I take advantage of the situation as it arises in public. Yes, that means having treats on or about my person, at times. I do care more about the quality of interaction. If we meet a dog and it doesn;t go well, I don't let that meeting take place, again. It's one of the reasons I don't walk him in my town. Too many loose dogs that were confrontational and I didn't want him to think that every dog meeting must be a fight.

The very best breeder/trainer/show person I talked to so far in my search for dogs has said to me that she doesn't think puppues should be at dog parks at all. There are too many variables that the owner has no control over, and the negative experiences can really add up to a problem later on. her opinion was that too many people have dog parks as their goal, and they are not usually a good place because of all the people who shouldn't have dogs there, but do anyway. Just like people who bring their kids to your house and then expect to not watch them.

I get the impression form the book, that most people undersocialize. they get a puppy they hardly have time for, and it doens't get enough. In my opinion, if a new owner is told to have his dog meet 500 dogs, it will be more like 50.

All I can say about it is that I am getting some really great info, and it won't be the last training book that I read. J

 Having had my dog attacked several times just walking on a leash around the neighbourhood, I just have trouble with this notion that dog parks are somehow more variable or potentially dangerous than the street. The dog parks that are no place for a puppy are the dog parks that are no place for most adult dogs. There is one around here that we don't go to even now that Kivi is grown. On the other hand, we have been to several unfenced ones and they have all been great. If I had a shy pup that I didn't think would cope with the dog park, I'd be sitting outside the shops with it instead.

The idea that dogs socialised in dog parks come to expect to be able to run up and greet any old dog they set eyes on is one that only works if you have only socialised your dog at a dog park. I for one do not think the dog park meets all a pup's doggy socialisation needs.

When I hear people say they treat any unleashed dog as dangerous around their dog, I think no wonder there are plenty of dog aggressive dogs around. They are all fulfilling their own prophecies, creating a dog that is aggressive on leash because they themselves are terrified and that leash acts as a link.

Angelique, I agree with you 100%. It's funny, because unfortunately, I have learned part of that the hard way. I have experienced the dog who thinks that the existence of another dog must predict that it can go meet and greet, and it is highly annoying and frustrating to re-teach. I know myself I don't stop to shake hands with every human I walk by, and I don't expect that my dog should be able to, or even necessarily want to.

My dogs have a "play group" that they have become very close with. Because Zipper is very social and thrives on dog-dog contact, I do allow him to meet and greet some strange dogs. But I always make sure that he doesn't meet EVERY dog he meets so that he doesn't feel that it's his god-given right to make all the canine social decisions.

Unfortunately, through working with my special needs girls, I've learned that raising your dog in way that actually limits (controlled, supervised interaction with selected dogs) their access to other dogs creates a better working dog, and a dog that understands play time versus everyday life. I stayed at the boarding kennel for a week last week, and Gaci, my lady with space issues and has gotten into dog-fights in the past, was a dream dog. What I observed, was that she chose to totally ignore the other dogs, make faces if they got in her space without aggressing, and all seven thrived together in the same house. My work with Gaci has had two results - a better all-round working dog, so that she can easily ignore other dogs, and assisting her in building up her space requirements so that she doesn't feel the need to aggress anymore. Gaci is not a dog-social dog, but you wouldn't really know to this day she had some serious dog issues, as she can mingle and even sniff butts and go on her way. She still once in a while will have a regression with a dog/type she has never met before (this summer she met a Great Dane....she's never seen one, and let me know that she didn't like it's existence LOL).

I see problems with dog parks, but I also know of good dog parks, so I try not to make blanket judgements. Personally I choose not to use dog parks, and I'm not sure if I ever would. If I did, really, Zipper is the only dog who I have that would really enjoy it anyway, and he gets lots of social time with his play group, so I don't feel he has to socialize with every dog the world produces.

 I just wanted to say that I really appreciate this open and honest discussion, as I've learned a lot.  I'm still thinking about trying a dog park with my friendly dog.  My 14-year-old Husky mix isn't fond of other dogs, and I think it's a bit late in the game to work on socializing.  But Shadow misses being around other dogs, and I'm keeping my eyes open for possibilities. 

I read several training books before stumbling onto Ian Dunbar's books, and I found his positive teaching methods to be a wonderful breath of fresh air!  If he was trying to reach the uneducated (about dogs) general public, he found it in me.  I love his upbeat, cheerful methods.  I'm sure there may be an occasional dog who doesn't respond well to his teachings, for whatever reason, but for the most part, I think it's a wonderful place for newbies to start. 

For those of us who made mistakes with our previous dogs out of ignorance, I'm glad we're getting a second chance to do it right this time!

I do think his book is a great book for a newbie to start out with, to show the importance of socialization in general. I think, though, it would be best paired with another book, that teaches dog owners about body language and emotions, so that owners can begin to learn to read their own dogs and do their best to make sure they are making all socialization efforts quality ones that the pup will remember in a good way.

Kim, which book would you suggest?

Also, when I said I thought it was a book for beginners, I meant according to the posts here. I really think it is a great book, for anyone. Even though I would not at this point in my existence try to train another dog by only reading one book. I do think, though that this a great one. J

 I'm going to jump in and recommend Barbara Handelman's book, "Canine Behavior - A Photo Illustrated Handbook".   Another good one is Brenda Aloff's book on body language, but I think Barbara's is clearer.

Also, regarding Angelique's comment: "I've found that no matter where you start with a youngster, it will be the social behavior the dog displays after reaching maturity (at around two years of age) which proves any method, philosophy, or owner interpretation/application of that method."  I disagree that that the social behavior at maturity is indicative of the success or failure of any method - sometimes, the social behavior is the result of genetics.  There are many dogs that behave differently with other dogs regardless of method, which is why some well meaning Pit Bull owners and their dogs get into such trouble.  It'a also the reason why previously well socialized Aussies sometimes decide they would rather not engage in physical play any longer.  Another factor in the relative success or failure of any method is the understanding and competence of the person who is employing it. 

As to dog parks, I agree that they are not the best place to socialize a dog - which is the cardinal reason why a supervised setting at classes or day care (provided the day care staff are really well educated on dog behavior, which many are not) is better than the free-for-all situations where the interactions are neither monitored nor understood.  My dogs have NEVER been to a dog park - yet they are socially appropriate with other dogs.  The real key is to start early (8 weeks) and avoid negative experieinces during fear imprint periods, and continue social activities until the dog is an adult and beyond, provided the dog does not fall into a group that is known to be dog aggressive at maturity and starts to display those tendencies in late adolescence.  Bully breed and DA dog owners must socialize the CRAP out of their dogs, but not necessarily expect that the dog will be fine with others for life, and appreciate that some breeds don't signal that the party's over until it's really freakin' over. 

Dr. Dunbar is not right on every point he ever made, but neither am I or any other trainer/behaviorist.  However, the fact is that he has probably done more to free dogs from pain, anxiety, and confusion, than any single person alive today, and we who love dogs owe him for that.

spiritdogs

There are many dogs that behave differently with other dogs regardless of method, which is why some well meaning Pit Bull owners and their dogs get into such trouble. 

But that should not then fall into this?:

spiritdogs

Another factor in the relative success or failure of any method is the understanding and competence of the person who is employing it. 

I could be wrong, but I think Anne's point was simply to point out that something as in depth as socialization is the product of a huge host of factors, and in reality it's a combination of all of them put together that determines how the dog will turn out.

Heck, you can have the *best* method (your choice), the best observation skills, the *best* skills at employing that method, good genetics, and still end up with a messed up dog if something bad happens to the animal. Life happens sometimes, and unfortunately there are some things you can't avoid. You can do all the right things yourself, but sometimes outside influences do things out of your control too. And I know many folks (and some of them are likely on here!!) who have experienced just that. Dog was perfect, no problems, until one day something big happens. Dog gets attacked. Dog gets injured somehow. Dog has to have a stay at a vet clinic for health issue. Dog gets old and develops cognitive disfunction and as a result has some new behaviour issues. It's too complicated to even attempt to simplify it.

A really good book, and inexpensive too, is Calming Signals  by Turid Rugaas. It's not a total behaviour book, but rather a specific set of signals that dogs use that humans can learn to read. I do like Brenda's book too. I haven't read the other book Anne mentioned.

 We don't HAVE dog parks here.  My ex's dog went to class and was socialised like crazy and he got as Angelique described - expecting and demanding to play with every darned dog he saw.  My own "well-socialised" dog does NOT like other dogs, and our NOT socialised, not-even-been-to-a-class-in-her-life-dog is just perfect.  As Kim said... Life happens.

My preferred method is to let the dog play and interact with a few, trusted play-dates - variety is good, but is doesn't have to be 100s, or even dozens of dogs.  Just a few vaccinated, temperamentally sound dogs that can show the pup the ropes, generally tolerant, but not averse to letting him know when he goes too far.  I like to balance that with lots of walks on the street where the focus is that it is a TRAINING session and I am aiming to teach the youngster that when you see something new - a person, a cat, a dog, a lorry, a horse - you come to heel, sit and watch me.  Sometimes there will be a treat, a toy, a "good dog!" or an ear rub for their trouble, and sometimes the reward will be to go and investigate - if I deem it safe and appropriate on that occasion.  To have a part-terrier default-sit when a cat streaked across the path in front of her nose is pretty cool.

Our not-socialised dog only had the latter - had no play dates or classes at all, and frankly, I know we lucked out with her.  Had she been born with a slightly different temperament, we would now have a VERY fraidy dog on our hands.

Kim_MacMillan

I haven't read the other book Anne mentioned.

  Not read a dog book?? Now I've heard it all.

Something I've learnt from off leash parks and beaches is that dogs have a lot of different styles. I would like it if Kivi learnt some of the ways different dogs communicate the same messages. The more the better. He has a great recall at the moment and would come away from meeting a dog if called, but I don't want to be forever watching his back and telling him who he can approach and who he should leave alone. I never even had to warn Penny to stay away if we saw a dog that looked aggressive while out and about. We go to dog beaches and places where we meet dogs all the time. In my mind, the more experience KT has with other dogs and their various styles, the better he will be equipped if I happen to miss something. Furthermore, dogs are way better at reading other dogs than humans are. I learnt so much from watching the way Penny dealt with strange dogs. 

corvus

Not read a dog book?? Now I've heard it all.

LMBO, I know, I know!! But I have, literally, eleven books sitting here that I have yet to read - about half dog, half fiction - that I can't justify buying any new books right now till I catch up! I desperately want Karen Pryor's new book, but have promised the SO that I would wait till I have read more of what I already have! I have this problem, of buying more books than I can read.......

 Haha, I have a waiting list of.... six books that are sitting around here waiting to be read. And another two on order.

Oh, I'm just as bad at buying books. I love it!!

This has gotten into some very interesting conversations. I would like to throw out there that when I talked about socializing back at the beginning, I meant not just with dogs, but people, and life in general. I know we all kind of went off on the how much is too much dog socialization. Very important to me after my last training experience.

Spencer, I have to say you have a very beautiful dog, and you may have a great store of dog knowledge but i can't say for sure because you don't post it in any of my topics. I don't read near as many posts as I would like for lack of time, so maybe you share that knowledge elsewhere and I miss it. But I have noticed that in my topics at least, you tend to not actually inject information, but just try to contradict anything that spiritdogs says. If it saves you any effort, I have a huge amount of respect for her and her knowledge. I would love to hear any useful information you may have.

And thanks to everyone else who has shared, I have picked up a lot from this one topic.  J