The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

FourIsCompany

Dog_ma

I'm not showing her that I'm the boss when I handle her. 

 

What are you doing, then? I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.  

I do something similar with Sally, and it's more of an exercise to get her used to being handled in various ways (desensitization) than an "I'm the boss and here's why" kind of thing.  She is pretty compliant to begin with and really doesn't need much beyond NILIF.   

Four, I'm disagreeing with your statement that alpha rolls *for the purpose* of showing a dog who is boss are ok.

I still love ya, even when you're wrong.   *runs to avoid being hit by any flying objects*

ETA - When I handle Sasha, it is for the purpose of accomplishing a concrete goal.  Ie, a gentle poke if she tunes out a command.  The poke is "Hey, I'm here space cadet, and I need your attention." I am careful to only handle Sasha in ways that I know she is comfortable with. Like Sally, I do exercises to increase her level of confidence with being handled.  Why does Sasha need that confidence? Because otherwise she might take a physical action as an assault. We've never had to test it, but I'm reasonably certain Sasha would bite if she felt she were being assaulted.

To make it simple: she lets me handle her because she trusts/respects me and the situation. I do not handle her in order to make her trust/respect me.  

When I want to know about something like this, I go to people who use it (rather than read about it).

I listen to people who have used it, and find it unsuccessful or damaging, and weigh their words to determine if it's failure is found in the maneuver or the handler.

I listen to people who have used it, and find it successful and positive, and weigh their words to determine if it's success is found in the maneuver or the handler.

Some maneuvers are just not made for some handlers (or dogs) and some handlers are just not made for some maneuvers. And certainly some maneuvers will just never enter my field of consideration.

I've written about "laying my dog on her side" in no less than 3 different threads on "alpha rolls" and "dominance rituals", which I assume can be searched. Since a treat feeding program to desensitize my dog in her leash reactivity stopped short in it's ability to account for actual confrontations and real world failures, I, very organically and instinctively discovered laying my dog on her side when she went apedoodie at the end of the leash. The maneuver worked both to calm and her and keep her (and the rest of us) safe, and as an aversive against doing it again. Think of a friend "loosing it" with extreme emotion, and you hug them forcefully to calm them ... same idea.

A few maneuvers worked wonders, and didn't shut my dog down in the least. In fact, I believe that since I was able to turn her chaos and fear into calmness and order, she learned to trust me more; I proved that I can be depended upon to "be a man" in a frightening situation. (I know the criticism of this is to never allow a frightening situation to arise, and my answer is ... meh ... if you live in an environment that you can exercise that much control over ... good for you! )

I like the idea of having a dog willing and trusting enough to roll on his back for petting or for the purpose of calming him down. I have taught both mine to do this using the word "settle" as the command. It starts with gently rolling them on their backs as puppies and just holding them, not a lot of talk or petting just saying the word settle and rubbing their heads. They will both do this on command and they enjoy it and it is very useful when they are both getting rambuncious in the house. I have not done it as punishment or in anger. I use it to calm them.

 Here is what I found regarding the monks method "The alpha roll was first widely popularized by the Monks of New Skete, in the 1976 book "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend".^[1] The book itself is widely regarded as a classic in dog training literature and highly recommended for people trying to better understand their dog. However, the monks themselves later expressed regret that they had included the alpha roll technique in the book, as it was often taken out of context and misused. Job Michael Evans, a former monk, has reportedly apologized for it. In the original context, the alpha roll was only meant to be used in the most serious cases and always in combination with positive reinforcement techniques"

ron2

My dog thinks the alpha roll is play.

Ron, Shadow actually thinks you picking him up by the scruff and bodyslamming him is play? LOL

lostcoyote

 and i have also seen one of my own dogs pin another one of my dogs a few months ago and then stand over the top of him in a dominant fashion. does that count? 

Sure, why wouldn't it?  

I've seen that happen in play.  I've also seen two dogs engaged in play where one is always on top.  I have never seen a dog roll another as a correction.  If others have, fine.  I haven't seen every dog interaction that's ever occurred; therefore I base my beliefs on what I've seen.  Books, articles and studies are what I use to back up my observations.  Other peoples' observations are just as valid as my own. 

lostcoyote

or will people who have not seen it just assume that it never occurs?

I don't know.  I'm not all the other people.  And the dogs I choose to surround myself with don't seem to fit into the typical "dog behavior" paradigm either.
 

.:.

snownose

Ron, Shadow actually thinks you picking him up by the scruff and bodyslamming him is play? LOL

I didn't have him as a little puppy. Granted, even in adulthood, I possess enough strength in one arm to lift him off the ground but he is tall and long. Only one time did I do a hard pin. It stopped the action at that instant. But it did not change the behavior. And the pin itself wasn't intimidating to him. My tone of voice was. The other times I scruffed and/or pinned, he was all smiles and would lower himself and roll. Rasslin, just like he use to do. And he would get up and do whatever again because it was part of the "game." He does this thing, you wrestle with him, he gets attention similar to what he got wrestling with his former owners. Play.

I would also suggest that when most people see a dog roll another, it is the "submissive" one that is rolling to offer appeasement. If it's a full-on fight, neither dog is rolling onto its back. They may try to bite each others' throat and render the opponent too injured to continue. Also, when people poke their dogs, I think it is more often a cue than an actual punishment as some dogs play by grabbing each others' throat with teeth and for a human to do it may be misinterpreted as play, a reinforcer.

In the op, the dog may have learned to view the roll and pin as a calming thing, not a punishment, especially if earlier instances of being pinned and rolled were associated with attention and affection.

ron2

I would also suggest that when most people see a dog roll another, it is the "submissive" one that is rolling to offer appeasement.

My husband and I used to kid around about videotaping Cara with the pups and posting it on another board where they were "afraid I was letting Cara hurt the puppies". Now, I wish I had at least videotaped it. I'll have to dig around and see what I can find...

It was NOT an offered submissive roll. It was something Cara DID to the pups. And she did it many times and NOW, that the Shepherds are bigger than her, they offer the submission, but it was Cara who set the rules in the first place, when they were puppies.

I'll see if I have any clips of it.
 

I wonder if dog behavior with puppies is its own thing? I'm curious. I wish you did have the videotape.  

I have never owned a female GSD, only males..but, when a puppy was brought in the older Shepherds were not real friendly in the beginning.....there was growling, posturing over the younger dogs and even pinning at times when the younger goof didn't know any better....warning bites have been dished out, too......now, thank God.....we have peace....lol

I've had totally opposite reactions from my gsds when I bring in foster pups.  The first litter was 4 or 5 weeks old when I got them without momma and my crew let them get away with murder.  That puppy license lasted for many months.  The next litter was whelped in my home, and once momma left, Sheba and the boys took over again.  Same behavior.

Dog_ma

I wonder if dog behavior with puppies is its own thing? I'm curious.

I believe it is. That's why I did it when my dogs were puppies. glenmar said earlier

glenmar

So this training is supposed to prevent needing to do it with a full grown dog.

And that's exactly right. I've never done it or felt I had to do it with my adult dogs.

I know I may regret this...  

I found 2 clips. In the first one, Mia and Jaia are playing. Cara is out of frame to the left and she's "nervous" because she recently had ACL surgery and she's not at all sure about the newcomer in the house. This is during the time when they were totally supervised together, after he'd been here about 3 weeks. Jaia gets too close to her and you can hear her growl a few times and bark and I caution her. But she doesn't listen to me and she runs over and puts Jaia down. Unfortunately, my eyes aren't on the camera anymore, I'm watching what happens and you don't see her put him down, but I did. She put him down with her arm. The reason? Because he got too close to her. After this incident, he began offering the submission.

In the second clip, Jaia and B'asia are playing in the yard. Jaia is running with the stick that he fetched, and B'asia is chasing him. At one point, he stops running and drops the stick and moves away from it. B'asia takes the opportunity to make a grab for the stick, so Jaia comes back in to claim it and B'asia growls and barks at him, in an attempt to bully him, but as you'll see, Jaia has other plans. He puts her down with his arm. Unfortunately, my husband interferes. He realizes his mistake, but too late.

Video Clip 

Glenda, I have never brought them in that young, purchased pups 11 weeks old....rescues 12 weeks and older....

lostcoyote

but what two people have stated in this thread already is that they have observed this occur.... does that alter your beliefs at all?

No.  Just pretend I'm from Missouri.

lostcoyote

i will also like to point out that books, articles, and studies are written by people.... people who have not seen every dog interaction.

Thanks, I'll take that into consideration.