Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

Benedict

Ixas_girl_

Welcome back to the behavior section! We've been enjoying dozans of discussions like this (on CM and other controversial subjects) for 3 months. Nice, isn't it!!! 

I stand by what I said.  This isn't typical....and nor is this the topic of conversation for this thread.
 

I have to agree with you Kate.  Though the thread had a very questionable genesis, it certainly became an enlightening exchange of ideas rather than the typical "I'm right, you're wrong" type of threads that proliferated behavior.  I think that the contribution from non-typical contributors aided immensely in presenting a fair assessment of the subject matter. 

Benedict

Ixas_girl_

Welcome back to the behavior section! We've been enjoying dozans of discussions like this (on CM and other controversial subjects) for 3 months. Nice, isn't it!!! 

I stand by what I said.  This isn't typical....and nor is this the topic of conversation for this thread.

That's ok, the archives speak for themselves. And welcome back anyway.
 

snownose

There are members on this forum of the +R application who claim that all one needs is +R when it comes to aggression.

That is why I mentioned it would be nice if we had a +R trainer on tv that could handle and take care of a red zone dog as CM does.

This made me think of what I find most difficult to convey to people comfortable with things like force and punishment. Kit taught me that too much pressure damages our relationship. That's not to say, though, that pressure isn't needed sometimes. However, it's a delicate dance and you need to know your animal pretty well. Too much pressure and he flips out and gets scared of me, but too little and nothing happens. So from my perspective, I always start conservatively with pressure because nothing happening is not damaging to our relationship but him freaking out is, and could end in him being hurt besides. Given he can go from calm to bouncing off the walls in less than 2 seconds, one finds that baby steps help us both. Seeing as fear and aggression are often tightly linked, I think it's important to always err on the conservative side with pressure for a trusting relationship.

So my point is, I always want to understate force and pressure because sometimes that line between okay and flipping out is so thin you need to be so on the ball to be able to judge it. With a hare, there's no danger to misjudging except to the hare, but with a dog... To me, upping the pressure in tiny increments to avoid blowouts is infinitely preferable to accidentally using too much pressure just once and having to start from scratch with an animal just that little more mistrustful of you. That to me is something that should be avoided like the plague. Which is why I'm leery of CMs quick fixes. I can use quick fixes on my dog and she'll be fine, but it wasn't until I raised a hare the slow and tedious way that I realised what my quick fixes were costing my relationship with my dog.

As for red zone dogs, there is Barking Mad, they rarely use anything harsher than ignoring bad behaviour. However, I'd like to suggest that 'failure' to rehab a red zone dog the positive way and opting for PTS instead might just be in the dog's best interests sometimes rather than putting it through a more rigorous rehab program. 

corvus

However, I'd like to suggest that 'failure' to rehab a red zone dog the positive way and opting for PTS instead might just be in the dog's best interests sometimes rather than putting it through a more rigorous rehab program. 

I caught a bit of heat for even suggesting that, more recently. Good luck and may the force be with you.

dgriego

Can you see the possibility that another dog of a more confident (dominant, stubborn, free thinker) nature might require a balanced approach? And when I say balanced I say that with the understanding that there are dogs out there that require a more gentle, positive approach.

When I got Shadow, he would jump on people. He would also hump. And if something else interested him, you ceased to exist. And if you went to body block, he would simply step out of the way. Now, I can recall and he can come back and sit at my side. It's not totally proofed but it is there.

And knowing what I know now, I would start out any dog with the +R approach and, if possible, have them evaluated or at least see what is possible before thinking about punishment. Or what level and type of correction might be necessary. Or what the time frame is. If I were an AC and I had to get a dog out of harm's way immediately and standard bribery didn't work, then I might use a catch pole, net, or cinch loop.

There is a guy that uses clicker training to train police dogs. FWIW, police dogs have to be a bit hard. That is, they have to be able to pursue a suspect and hold a controlled bite in spite of noise, gunfire, and the suspect hitting them. And their reward is tug with a rolled towel. They often don't get trained with food so that suspect cannot distract them with a food offering.

I remain steadfast in my assertation that the +R, -P approach should always be tried first and foremost. Because it can be less damaging. In many cases, I think it is more effective, such as our case. Amongst us great unwashed masses, it is a more forgiving training style. A mistake usually only results in a well-fed dog and a confused human. There is less room for error the farther towards punishment one goes. At the other extreme, with trainers who will hang dogs, it's a fine line between a severe punishment and death. As a wise person once said, it is not so much what the animal is as it is how the animal learns.

I don't hate CM and I will agree that he has done good things and comes from good motivation. I just disagree with some of his methods and summations.

Ron, we totally understand what has worked for you and Shadow, and that is great....but, please, don't discount what has worked for many here on this board....a combination of training and behavior modification approach.......I think we have established that most of us use a "Big " toolbox with all sorts of different approaches......call it, picking out the best of each......

ron2

A mistake usually only results in a well-fed dog and a confused human.

What mistake, I thought with +R there are no mistakes.....lol

ron2

I remain steadfast in my assertation that the +R, -P approach should always be tried first and foremost.

Just a reminder from those of us that are not scientifically minded and also in behalf of the dog, punishment is punishment and it makes no difference if it follows +R or is lead by - or +.  I believe that some dogs handle physical corrections such as sounds, hand motions, etc. better than mental punishment, that is my experience.

I do like the recognition that in any training method, R and P are always present.

Moderator speaking,

If this thread get gets derailed it would be a real shame. Please keep the little digs to yourself.

This is a general request to all posting on the thread, a request posted for information, not discussion...thanks.

corvus

Kit taught me that too much pressure damages our relationship. That's not to say, though, that pressure isn't needed sometimes. However, it's a delicate dance and you need to know your animal pretty well.

This is beautifully said and as true as it gets for me. A “dance” is exactly the way I would describe this scenario. The little cues, the look in the eye, the “energy” I feel from my partner. I’m thinking of Jaia particularly, because he’s at “that age” {14 months} where his strong will is really showing. And since he’s the first of this breed that I’ve had, I’m getting to know this breed through him. (I’m sure B’asia will have her own set of issues, but the breed is an important characteristic.)

Whatever form the “pressure” is in, I think it’s important to know my partner and to go into it, not with a rigid set of steps to follow, but with an openness, a fluidity, a willingness to do whatever works for us instead of a hard and fast “method” that I would apply to every dog. That’s what works for me.

FourIsCompany

Whatever form the “pressure” is in, I think it’s important to know my partner and to go into it, not with a rigid set of steps to follow, but with an openness, a fluidity, a willingness to do whatever works for us instead of a hard and fast “method” that I would apply to every dog. That’s what works for me.

I think this is true for the vast majority of us, regardless of whether we use a more physical, direct approach, or a very positive based one.

Example, I was training my mums dog to "down" (which he has never been able to do before).  I used something he wanted (a chewtoy that he likes to catch or fetch) and I threw it as soon as he lay down.  If he didnt down, I didnt throw it.  It was easy to see that even leaning forward intently while waiting for him (rooting for him to "get it";) was too much pressure for the little dog.  Slumping and turning away caused him to down very promptly and easily.  I am convinced he has some herder breed in him - heeler or corgi - and as such he is very sensitive to very subtle gestures and very "soft" in that he really WANTS human approval and partnership.  He was bought as a JRT, but IME JRT's are generally much tougher... "knock them down" (figure of speech only!!!) and they bounce right back up again!  My sister has a dog like this.

Which dog then , do you think is better suited to CMs "more direct" approach?

Chuffy

Which dog then , do you think is better suited to CMs "more direct" approach?

I think, depending on the dog, the situation and the person (their abilities and preferences) any dog can be suited to some of the tools he uses. I use techniques I learned from him on all my dogs. That's not to say he invented the techniques. He didn't. He just has a wide audience to which he can distribute them.

He's like an infomercial for a toolbox of tools that range from a small sponge to a large hammer. Some people don't like him because they've seen him use the hammer. And when he uses the sponge, people say "He's didn't invent the sponge. You can get a sponge from many other "dealers"."  

So really, none of the techniques are "his" except maybe "tssst" and the jargon. That's really all that's "his" (and I'm not even sure about that) and you can't do very much by reciting jargon and saying "tsst" to your dog.  

Without getting into a terminology tournament, CM doesn't ONLY use more direct (physical, forceful) techniques. If you saw last weeks show and how he dealt with the timid dog, he was VERY hands-off and gentle with her.

I'm not sure that answers your question. But I wouldn't be scruffing a timid dog. But then, neither would Cesar.  

In my experience, dogs are much more complex than labeling them "soft" or "hard". They have intricacies that aren't covered there. At the risk of extremely anthropomorphizing, Jaia (my current focus dog) always asks, "What's in it for me"? But he's SO tender and impressionable, I have to be careful not to hurt him emotionally. But he's also very stubborn. That's why I can't say that one dog would work with Cesar's techniques and one wouldn't. Because dogs are SO different and the techniques CM uses are SO varied that I think "his" techniques would work on any dog. But I wouldn't throw the whole toolbox at the dog. CM isn't really about techniques, he's about an attitude of leadership and communication. That's why it's important to watch more than one show and read more than what his critics have to say before making a judgment about him.

snownose

What mistake, I thought with +R there are no mistakes.....lol

I had phrased my sentence most carefully. The mistake is not usually with the training system but with the human, who makes mistakes. The dog gets fed and the human wonders what went wrong.

FourIsCompany

He's like an infomercial for a toolbox of tools that range from a small sponge to a large hammer. Some people don't like him because they've seen him use the hammer. And when he uses the sponge, people say "He's didn't invent the sponge. You can get a sponge from many other "dealers"."  

Ah I love this!  What an eloquent way to put it. 

Obvioulsy, it is the "hammer" people don't like to much.  So, which dog should the "hammer" be used on?  Now, on the small herding dog, the soft and sensitive dog, I think you could get away with it if you used the "hammer" very gently.  After all, if you are skilled enough, you can use a hammer to crack an egg!  I like corvus' wordage: "a delicate dance".  A beautiful phrase that really captures the working partnership between a dog and a human who are striving to understand one another.  However, try to use the "hammer" on the terrier.... and I guarantee you, the harder you "push" the harder she pushes back!  Getting her to WANT to do stuff, through rewards is easier, pleasanter, quicker and kinder.  Sure you could keep "hammering".  And she'd just keep bouncing back until she either "snapped" or shut down. 

I'm struggling to put my thoughts in to words at the moment (its getting late) so I will leave it there and go to bed!

Chuffy

 through rewards is easier, pleasanter, quicker and kinder.  Sure you could keep "hammering".  And she'd just keep bouncing back until she either "snapped" or shut down. 

I think you needed to have the words "for me" at the end of that sentence

For me  actually that way takes more time and is harder and thats why i dont choose that route when i deal with my and other dogs

If you dont know how to perform your method very well then you end with a confused dog, if you know what you are doing then your dog will do what you want

Is exactly the same with the methods i use, if i know what i'm doing i will be successful and the dog will be also happy, the only and i repeat ONLY time i could end up with a "snapped or shut down" dog is:

1.-I'm dealing with an aggressive dog

AND 

2.-I have absolutely NO idea what i'm doing

If you decide that "vanilla ice cream" tastes better that my choice of "chocolate ice cream" thats fine, that does not make any of them being more or less delicious than the other, its just matter of preference, yes the "chocolate" one could make worse stains in your clothing (and maybe thats another reason why you think "vanilla" is better) but if you know how to eat "chocolate ice cream" you can enjoy it without any worries