Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

 LOL....I don't eat it...hehehe.

snownose

What a combination...yuck.....lol...my dogs love chicken b r e a s t...........that word gets filtered out....lol

We call it chicken boob in my house anyway.  

I think this discussion is winding down so it may be safe to ask.  Did Steve Irwin, the Crocadile Hunter have his detractors much like CM?  I can kind of relate to the "anti-CM from only watching the tv because each time I watched Steve I would say to myself "Leave those animal alone". 

 That is an excellent question, DPU, but potentially better put in a new thread, instead of it getting buried at the end of this one?

absolutely he did DPU. In fact several people from PeTA or an org like that made some very nasty statements when he died from that point of view.

snownose

There are members on this forum of the +R application who claim that all one needs is +R when it comes to aggression.

That is why I mentioned it would be nice if we had a +R trainer on tv that could handle and take care of a red zone dog as CM does.

I would love to see this too, but I don't think that just b/c there isn't one on TV or as popular as Cesar (in the celebrity sense) doesn't mean it can't happen.  I know of two local behaviorists that specialize in positive methods for aggressive dogs, one is also an expert in T-Touches (which I am trying to learn to reduce Kenya's stress at home, though she's not at all aggressive).  There is a third behaviorist that also enoys working with aggressive and pushy dogs, but she's more in the middle between CM (corrections correction corrections) and the two positive/operant conditioning/lure&reward behaviorists.  These three behaviorists are all within a 20 minute drive of my home.  I'm sure other people aren't so lucky, but so far I haven't had many problems finding local behaviorists and trainers gladly willing to work with aggressive dogs (I originally searched before bringing Kenya home, b/c we didn't really know what to expect besides being told that she had "an issue";).

What I think would be nice is if more JQP did their research and looked for help, IN PERSON, instead of trying to imitate a TV personality that specializes in red zone cases (not usually the issues that JQP has with their dogs) with no proper guidance or instruction.  This is no fault of Cesar's since he always encourages to find help in person, but at the same time we can't put him on a pedestal just b/c he happens to have a TV show.

I think Stillwell has had some pretty extreme cases on her show.  I haven't seen any really aggressive dogs (well, that Patterdale was more than I'd ever care to deal with), but she has deal with extreme anxiety, neurotic behaviors, and dogs that are just plain out of control (huge labs and danes that still act like 8 week old pups).  I haven't noticed a significant difference in the behaviors she works with on her show than the ones CM works with on his.  I think he is more of a specialist as far as red zone aggression, but only a small fraction of his episodes actually deal with that problem. 

Benedict

It totally makes sense, but there are +R people who use NILIF to achieve exactly the same effect in their dogs. 

I know. I agree. I think one of the assumptions made about CM supporters is that they don't "believe in" +R or they don't think it works. And in my experience, that's not the case. As I have said, I use +R AND NILIF AND T-Touch and have advocated them right here on this board and elsewhere. I don't consider myself a "+R person", because I tend to think of +R as +R exclusively. 

*Side note*: DPU, I hate what Steve Irwin and those other guys like that do (and did). The difference is that it wasn't a big deal to me. I know he had a huge following and I never went into discussions about him to shame his supporters for liking him, or to put him down, even though he did his very best to disturb and frighten wild animals and tempt them to bite or kill him... Never. I don't understand why people adored him so, because I thought he was cruel. I can't stand the show and I never watched it. Only ads and previews. But I never once tried to make him or his proponents wrong for liking him or his show or shame them for supporting what I see as totally unnecessary cruelty.

FourIsCompany

*Side note*: DPU, I hate what Steve Irwin and those other guys like that do (and did). The difference is that it wasn't a big deal to me. I know he had a huge following and I never went into discussions about him to shame his supporters for liking him, or to put him down, even though he did his very best to disturb and frighten wild animals and tempt them to bite or kill him... Never. I don't understand why people adored him so, because I thought he was cruel. I can't stand the show and I never watched it. Only ads and previews. But I never once tried to make him or his proponents wrong for liking him or his show or shame them for supporting what I see as totally unnecessary cruelty.

For me and to help me understand both profiles created in this thread, I kept thinking why am I neutral on CM and why do I dislike Irwin so much.  The answer for me is how I perceive the treatment of the dog or animal and my exposure to the celebrity.  For CM, I read his book and watch his shows from the internet.  There were two shows where I felt strongly that CM got it wrong.  For Irwin, he was on everything, from Saturdy morning kiddy shows to late night talk shows.  And each time I would say to myself, "leave those animals alone". 

If I was given a public forum to talk about Steve Irwin, I would probably be labeled negatively just as you described.  A good part of my life is in advocacy for the shelter dog.  Advocacy versus complacency was not in your list.      

 I guess I don't see the connection between CM and Irwin...??  CM works primarily with aggressive domestic dogs and Irwin moved wild animals from endangered zones into protected zones and sanctuaries.

FourIsCompany

I don't consider myself a "+R person", because I tend to think of +R as +R exclusively. 

In that case, NO ONE here is "R+".  Because R+ exclusively just doesn't exist.  Positive only is a misnomer.  We all use punishment as well - a great deal of negative punishment I think, because so many people here use nilif....  And even some people who cliam to be R+ only use pumishment....  booby trapping a counter to stop countersurfing is a form of punishment, it is just not associated with the handler.

I have never understood why CM is always placed at the opposite end of the spectrum to R+.  The 2 are not really opposites.  They sit side by side in most households.  On the one hand, we carry ourselves with authority; we endeavour to always remain calm, patient and consistent, on the other we teach our dogs ti sit, come, go to bed etc.  Both enhance mutual trust, understanding, respect and co habitation.

Chuffy

some people who cliam to be R+ only

I agree with you, but I am under the impression that many who advocate +R actually feel that they don't do any punishment. And I don't want to get into a definitions tournament here. LOL  Nor do I want to tell anyone what to call themselves. What I should have said is "I don't consider myself a "+R person", because I tend to think of "+R" as people who say they are +R exclusively".

I've gotten rather sick of "positive" and "negative" b/c they've become such loaded terms (even when the definitions ARE subjective, like "negative punishment";).  Instead, I prefer to say "I use operant conditioning and lure/reward"  or "I use flooding and leash corrections." or any combination of any terms.  IMO, "positive" and "negative" make things seem mutually exclusive, when in reality there are always overlaps in training methods and theories.  Lure/reward is a form of operant conditioning, but you can do operant conditioning by freeshaping and not use lure/reward.  Like most people here, whichever method I use totally depends on what behavior I'm looking for, or even my dog's mood on that specific day.  The two things I try to avoid at all costs are leash corrections and flooding. 

Benedict

FourIsCompany

but I don't see "dissecting" of anything in this thread

 

To be fair, this thread is not an accurate representation of what CM threads are usually like.  I can't remember the last thread on this subject that was this long but had stayed civil for so long.  This has been an astonishingly adult exchange of ideas, theories and values - and I am thrilled by how this thread has unfolded - but it's not typical. 

Ixas_girl_

Welcome back to the behavior section! We've been enjoying dozans of discussions like this (on CM and other controversial subjects) for 3 months. Nice, isn't it!!! 

I stand by what I said.  This isn't typical....and nor is this the topic of conversation for this thread.