Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

FourIsCompany

but I don't see "dissecting" of anything in this thread

To be fair, this thread is not an accurate representation of what CM threads are usually like.  I can't remember the last thread on this subject that was this long but had stayed civil for so long.  This has been an astonishingly adult exchange of ideas, theories and values - and I am thrilled by how this thread has unfolded - but it's not typical. 

rwbeagles

I think that's kinda sad, personally. If this thread helps tone some of that down...I think it's already done this forum a great service.

We can hope, eh Gina?  

Benedict

Liesje

So what makes Cesar Cesar? 

 

Personality, chutzpah and novelty value. 

I've always thought he seemed like a very nice man...humble if I had to choose a word. I do know someone who went to him when he was "just a guy" for his aggro PB issues and he was helped and immensely impressed. His dog is still with him, which was in serious doubt preCesar visit.

I have nothing against him on a personal level...and given that I've already admitted that dog training is something low on my scale of stuff I worry about with my dogs....his methods don't strike me one way or the other most times. He is a guy who trains on TV...and there have been many before and many will come after. Woodhouse had rabid fans in her day, lol. "WAAAALKIES!"....

My main problem is that I wish OP's coming to this forum for advice with a normal, everyday, non life threatening issue...could get some advice from varied sources...and not have those sources turn the OP's thread into a tit for tat pick apart session. That's about it.

Benedict

OK, so what I am understanding from that, and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, is that there are 2 parts to Cesar's methods:

1. Working with the owner for the purpose of restructuring of the situation in the dog's home, and teaching the owners that exercise and structure is necessary to the dog's health, well-being and good behavior.  This has valuable lessons that can be applied to every owner.

2.  Working with the dog in a physical sense, using methods that are only to be used on dogs for whom NOTHING else has worked: "don't try this at home". 

So if we disregard part 2 as being pretty much irrelevant to that VAST majority of people on this forum and dogs in general....what exactly is it about part one that Cesar does that +R trainers do NOT do, and vice versa?  Every +R trainer (both professional and domestic) in the world would, I think, agree that owners need to make sure the dogs needs are accounted for within the owner's life, that dogs need exercise, structure, training and affection.

So, again disregarding part two...what the heck are "we" fighting over? 

 If you mention that someone's dog is not getting enough exercise it is assumed that you are saying exercise is sufficient in and of itself.

 In my opinion this is what we should stand against.

any my opinion of point 2 is this is not always about dogs with major problems, I use body blocks and physical touch with my Hektor. He is 80 lbs and still growing and he is as tough as nails, I do not think he has a "sensitive" bone in his body. Physical touch works well with him, it does not work well with my Gunnar who is a very sensitive dog.

Man! I type slow!

Benedict

Why is CM discussed so heavily on this board if this is the case?  If his methods are for dogs for whom absolutely nothing else has helped, why is he brought into discussions about ordinary training?  Do we have so many almost-lost-cause dogs here that it is warranted to discuss CM and his methods so much?

rwbeagles

I thought the question was more like "why does Cesar come into discussions on training if he isn't a trainer but a red zone specialist?" At least that's what I figured...

This is a VERY important point, I think. It's the methods he uses for "almost-lost-cause dogs" that people disapprove of so strongly (Flooding, "rolling", sharp leash corrections, etc). Those are the more controversial techniques (very few of which I employ) and "anti-CM" folks (in my experience) have a tendency to think that if you support CM, you alpha roll your dog. It just kind of goes without saying. It's one of those assumptions that in most cases is incorrect. People don't really disapprove of walking the dog, exercise, rules, affection... the things he advocates for all dogs for a healthy, emotionally-balanced dog. And no, he's not the only person to advocate those things. They're common sense. But to me, so is blocking. And energy. And calm/assertive manner. And pack behavior. And a lot of other techniques, methods and observations he uses and has named with his "jargon".

He is a "red zone specialist" but that's not all he is. I don't use the red zone techniques, because I have regular doggies that sometimes don't do what I want them to - or do things that I don't want them to do. It's not about "training". My dogs aren't "trained" to do many things. But I'm strictly a reward proponent when it comes to training a dog to perform a specific task. My interest in and support of Cesar's methods is for the "big picture", the pack stability.

If we're eating dinner, and the dogs start to roughhouse, I want to be able to calmly say something and have them stop. Not because they're afraid, but because the big kahuna said to. They can do whatever they want. They don't have to sit or go to a particular place or lie down. They can do whatever they want. Except be rowdy inside at that time. As I see it, training is about teaching a dog TO DO something, which definitely has its place. But pack dynamics is about having a stable, balanced, harmonious existence with obedient dogs and humans living in the same area. And training doesn't do that for me.

Does that make sense?  

rwbeagles

BTW I'm not a person who is convinced that postive only works on extremely aggressive dogs...so there's me outed...LOL!

Thanks for being so honest....I agree with this 100%

There are members on this forum of the +R application who claim that all one needs is +R when it comes to aggression.

That is why I mentioned it would be nice if we had a +R trainer on tv that could handle and take care of a red zone dog as CM does.

rwbeagles

My main problem is that I wish OP's coming to this forum for advice with a normal, everyday, non life threatening issue...could get some advice from varied sources...and not have those sources turn the OP's thread into a tit for tat pick apart session. That's about it.

  I think that number 3 is used a lot in regards to answering people’s posts. I would respond much better to someone who could point out an easier method than to someone who points out a better method.

any road gos both ways tho,....we can't point fingers at one group only

Benedict

To be fair, this thread is not an accurate representation of what CM threads are usually like. ... it's not typical.

Absolutely! I agree completely. I feel so bad when the kind of exchange Gina described happens. Where a person comes in for help, and the would-be "helpers" end up in a flame war because they can't agree on the very best method to handle the OP's issue and the OP gets forgotten and goes off in search of another board or worse yet, decides to keep doing what's not working or gives up on the dog. I've seen that happen here and it breaks my heart.

rwbeagles

IMO tho training can help some issues that get discussed here often like barking, mouthing, or jumping up or inappropriate elimination or resource guarding. Commands abound that can help with those...and so do other things like exercise and energy sure...both can work together just great. And none of that need have anyone's "name" attached to them...it's just for me filed under "stuff that works"

Absolutely. And I think the larger the "tool box" an owner has, the more likely he'll have something to try if one thing doesn't seem to work. I've used some "training" with issues, too. I'm not against it by any means. AND I think people will do best of they have a few methods to consider and even try in concert (which is what I've done with B'asia) than to be told that ONE way is the best. I don't believe there is one way that's best.

Kate, What are we fighting over? The need to be right. (IMO)
 

FourIsCompany

If we're eating dinner, and the dogs start to roughhouse, I want to be able to calmly say something and have them stop. Not because they're afraid, but because the big kahuna said to. They can do whatever they want. They don't have to sit or go to a particular place or lie down. They can do whatever they want. Except be rowdy inside at that time. As I see it, training is about teaching a dog TO DO something, which definitely has its place. But pack dynamics is about having a stable, balanced, harmonious existence with obedient dogs and humans living in the same area. And training doesn't do that for me.

Does that make sense?  

It totally makes sense, but there are +R people who use NILIF to achieve exactly the same effect in their dogs.  And this is why BOTH methods should be filed into Gina's "stuff that works" folder, to be drawn upon both for ourselves and to be handed out as possible answers to people in a panic that come here to find solutions.  Without the tit for tat.  "Here's the stuff that works folder, choose what resonates with you and most importantly what you think your dog will respond to.  And stick around, there's lots to learn."

FourIsCompany

Kate, What are we fighting over? The need to be right. (IMO)

We haven't been fighting at all that I noticed...so indeed it must be possible not to! LOL...encouraging.

FourIsCompany

Kate, What are we fighting over? The need to be right. (IMO)

My dog doesn't care if I'm right.  Just that I do the best I can by him, and have an endless supply of garlic chicken livers.   

rwbeagles

We haven't been fighting at all that I noticed...so indeed it must be possible not to! LOL...encouraging.

No, we haven't been fighting here and yes that is very encouraging.  Just a reference to other threads where "fighting" could be the only possible description of what was happening. 
 

Benedict

My dog doesn't care if I'm right.  Just that I do the best I can by him, and have an endless supply of garlic chicken livers.

What a combination...yuck.....lol...my dogs love chicken b r e a s t...........that word gets filtered out....lol