Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

snownose

the fact that a dog needs to be physically and mentally stimulated, and that a dog needs to be a dog not a human.....

I think folks here would give that same advice minus Cesar quite honestly. If someone were to come here with a crazed Lab I can almost bet the first ?? asked would be "how much exercise/stimulation does the dog get?"...and I have a feeling this advice was being offered here pre Cesar by other people who knew this simply from owning and training their own dogs....as regular joes or professionals. Shoot Brian Kilcommons preached that same stuff many, many years back...that's where I first heard "a tired dog is a good dog"...in his book.

Again...assuming one could agree with the above...why does a red zone specialist come up so often when the non red zone parts of his philosophy are not new or trademarked, in discussion of regular dogs with regular issues? Not asking you directly snownose...this is more just a rhetorical question.

Chuffy

Another area I am uncomfortable with CM.  The assumption that dogs are pack animals.  They are very social animals and some have a much greater pack drive than others.  I see you have GSDs (well known for being "velcro";) huskies (which are very well known for team work) so I imagine both types have a high pack drive and you can use this to your advantage.  I can see why his methods would therefore make sense toyou, because it must resonate a lot with much of what you do anyway.  What about terriers or hounds who have been selectively bred, sometimes for CENTURIES to be more independent and aloof? To work independently of the handler?  The difference between dealing with a lab, a terrier and a herder is TRUE "apples and oranges", yet I don't see that come across in his show much at all....

Chuffy, I am just going to assume that you have never owned a Husky, if I am wrong sue me....lol...j/k

Huskies are some of the most independent dogs one could have, they are escape artists and don't give a hoot about team work. They have to be taught to pull together, and you know how many Huskies have run away during team work application when given a chance......yikes, just last year a musher lost his dog during the Iditarod, he was able to get out of his harness and was gone, they searched for days, and finally found him.It's not unusual for one of my Huskies to lay out outside all by himself, especially when it gets colder.

OK, so what I am understanding from that, and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, is that there are 2 parts to Cesar's methods:

1. Working with the owner for the purpose of restructuring of the situation in the dog's home, and teaching the owners that exercise and structure is necessary to the dog's health, well-being and good behavior.  This has valuable lessons that can be applied to every owner.

2.  Working with the dog in a physical sense, using methods that are only to be used on dogs for whom NOTHING else has worked: "don't try this at home". 

So if we disregard part 2 as being pretty much irrelevant to that VAST majority of people on this forum and dogs in general....what exactly is it about part one that Cesar does that +R trainers do NOT do, and vice versa?  Every +R trainer (both professional and domestic) in the world would, I think, agree that owners need to make sure the dogs needs are accounted for within the owner's life, that dogs need exercise, structure, training and affection.

So, again disregarding part two...what the heck are "we" fighting over? 

Gina, I am sure many folks recommend exercise and structure, but I think the question was in reference to CM helping difficult dogs and what the regular owner can take away from his applications....

Gina and I posted pretty much exactly the same thing...which to my mind, makes it a valid question if anyone wants to attempt an answer... Edit - snownose this wasn't aimed at you, posted before I saw your response.

rwbeagles

snownose

the fact that a dog needs to be physically and mentally stimulated, and that a dog needs to be a dog not a human.....

I think folks here would give that same advice minus Cesar quite honestly. If someone were to come here with a crazed Lab I can almost bet the first ?? asked would be "how much exercise/stimulation does the dog get?"...and I have a feeling this advice was being offered here pre Cesar by other people who knew this simply from owning and training their own dogs....as regular joes or professionals. Shoot Brian Kilcommons preached that same stuff many, many years back...that's where I first heard "a tired dog is a good dog"...in his book.

Again...assuming one could agree with the above...why does a red zone specialist come up so often when the non red zone parts of his philosophy are not new or trademarked, in discussion of regular dogs with regular issues? Not asking you directly snownose...this is more just a rhetorical question.

Bingo, Gina.  I've always wondered the same, which goes along with my earlier post.  Sure I am willing to support CM, IF I could figure out what exactly it is he is advocating.  The only terms I hear him use consistently are terms EVERY dog owner would agree with, things definitely not at all unique to him or any other trainer.  So what makes Cesar Cesar? 

Benedict

So, again disregarding part two...what the heck are "we" fighting over? 

Ah, good question.......I guess we haven't seen a show on tv with a trainer who applies +R only and who handles the type of dogs that CM has handled.......it would be nice to see, not just hear or read about it....then we would have a fair comparison situation.....eh?

snownose

but I think the question was in reference to CM helping difficult dogs and what the regular owner can take away from his applications....

I thought the question was more like "why does Cesar come into discussions on training if he isn't a trainer but a red zone specialist?" At least that's what I figured...

Liesje

So what makes Cesar Cesar? 

Personality, chutzpah and novelty value. 

snownose

Chuffy, I am just going to assume that you have never owned a Husky, if I am wrong sue me....lol...j/k

Huskies are some of the most independent dogs one could have, they are escape artists and don't give a hoot about team work. They have to be taught to pull together, and you know how many Huskies have run away during team work application when given a chance......yikes, just last year a musher lost his dog during the Iditarod, he was able to get out of his harness and was gone, they searched for days, and finally found him.It's not unusual for one of my Huskies to lay out outside all by himself, especially when it gets colder.

Yes you are right, never owned a husky!  But notice I didn't describe them as velcro, like GSDs.  I am aware that the primitive breeds are often quite aloof from humans and quite, as you might say "hard".  I don't know, some dogs seem to thrive best in an only-dog-household and huskies as a general rule dont seem to fall into that category.... I have known a few people w/ huskies and they almost never just have one dog.... almost never just have one husky!  Whether it really is because they thrive best as a "pack" as I have always assumed, or just because they are ADDICTIVE I don't know!

Anyway, straying off topic here..... BTT BTT BTT BTT!!!!!

rwbeagles

I thought the question was more like "why does Cesar come into discussions on training if he isn't a trainer but a red zone specialist?" At least that's what I figured...

Yep, that was my question, but you put it better than I did. 

rwbeagles

Not sure why the duh was necessary....that's a bit rude?

I didn't say it to be rude. I say that often to mean, "This is obvious". My statement was "we all choose the way we work with dogs because we think it's best. Duh." Meaning of course we choose what we think is best. Why would we choose a method that we thought wouldn't work? That's all I meant. I apologize if it was interpreted as rude. I have no reason to be rude at this point. I'm thrilled with the progress of this thread and do not want to do anything to threaten that.

rwbeagles

If an owner's preference is to be harsh with a soft dog...IMO that is not okay...and I will say so. And so will many others here...so there's that.

To be clear on exactly what's being put forth, I think a lot of definitions of terms would be necessary and I'm not so interested in agreeing on what we mean by "harsh", "soft", "direct", "physical" or "intuitive". That's where the argument comes in. My interest lies in bridging the gap by being LESS judgmental and dissecting of each others methods and MORE understanding and accepting of the fact that we're all doing what we think is best for our dogs.

rwbeagles

Who is this "we"?

When I said "we", I meant the people who are involved in this discussion on this board, in this thread. The people that I have seen actively involved in the "Cesar discussions" here in the few months I've been here. The people who care so much as to post over and over again in an effort to come to some kind of understanding with each other and help each other with our dogs and their issues.

rwbeagles

THOSE people are the one's we need to be keeping in mind when we make suggestions

In my opinion, those people are probably pretty smart, too, and more importantly, love their dogs and may be searching for different points of view and different methods with which to deal with their dogs. I agree it's important to keep them in mind. I've mentioned this a couple times in this thread. However, they are responsible for what they ultimately do and I'm not. That may sound cold, but I cannot be responsible for anyone else's choices. I'm not advocating cruelty here. I'm not advocating anything, actually. I'm saying what works for me.

rwbeagles

Just wanted to repost this...because I do think it is a factor fueling these types of thread.

Do you see this happening or is it just a warning so it doesn't happen? What I see is discussion. I see responses to particular points made by different posters (agreement, disagreement, explanation), but I don't see "dissecting" of anything in this thread. I know I'm giving my opinion. I'm not searching for further meaning in their words or telling them what they mean or what they feel or picking apart what they say.

rwbeagles

I thought the question was more like "why does Cesar come into discussions on training if he isn't a trainer but a red zone specialist?" At least that's what I figured...

Yes, you are correct, I guess I was thinking ahead what my answer would be....you know in reference to what a regular owner could take away from his application.

BTW I'm not a person who is convinced that postive only works on extremely aggressive dogs...so there's me outed...LOL!

My stake in this is purely curious, I don't train my dogs to do more than the basics...which is leave me alone while I eat....not mess in the house...and don't chase the cats, or mouth the people. I find the intimate discussions of training intimidating much as I do food discussions....there's some honesty for ya!

It's more the dynamic of the folks that makes me curious...and how intense it gets...etc. I pop into threads where an OP comes in with a normal doggy issue and they get some advice and then the advisors get to 'chatting intensely' with one another about their advice...and the OP get's kind of well...lost...

I think that's kinda sad, personally. If this thread helps tone some of that down...I think it's already done this forum a great service.