Question about clicker training

I don't teach a clicker class but my understanding is that you can use whatever motivates the dog best.  Treats are just easiest and most dogs are food motivated.  If they don't appear to be, you can train when they are naturally hungry and/or rack up the treat value to get them interested.  Most of the resources I've read assume you'll be using treats if you "click", so I feel a bit out my depth considering a clicker paired with a toy or game.  I'm sure others will know more about it.

That's what I am wondering about.
I can see why click-and-treat is effective - you're not loosing the momentum... both you and your dog are in the play-zone. But, click-and-tug, or click-and-go sniff Maggie?
Maybe I am taking clicker-training out of context, but hey, I am not the only dog owner who'd question these things....

There was a book I was perusing at the book store a couple weeks ago called How Dogs Learn. It's a book on operant and classical conditioning and training dogs and there is a whole form in there that you can fill out (or copy and give to your class, as I think this was a book really more aimed at professionals) that let's the owner note all of the various kinds of things their dog loves, the specifics of them and their approximate rank order. The purpose is to find what is reinforcing for each individual dog to use in positive reinforcement training.

As the owner of hounds I have no problem using treats [], but every book and website I've ever read suggests you use whatever is motivating for the dog. It may interrupt the "flow" and slow down your rate of reinforcement (which is certainly a factor, how many trials of something you can get in per session), but that's better than trying to use something that isn't at all reinforcing to the dog. I would think if you were using something like fetch or tug you could kind of get into a groove with it. "Sit!"*click* *throw* *fetch* "Sit!" *click* *throw* *fetch*.

I'll use the clicker sometimes for real-world rewards too. So "sit" at the door, *click* the door opens to go out or in. Or when walking, to learn to sit at the corner, the reward could be moving again for a dog who's really motivated to walk (mine aren't really).

For classes I'd probably want to contact the instructor beforehand to tell them that my dog isn't food motivated and is he or she set up to deal with a dog using some other kind of reinforcer.

lets see if I can take you through the steps that I used  with my non food motivated dog.

My first sign of motivation was with the foraging game. With my dog, it is all about the nose.

I found out that everything that is right and holy in Zeus's world (a ride in the truck w/dad)  involved slim jims.

I would hide (in plain sight) a piece of slim jims, point at it and squeal "find it". Of course he found it and I would "yaaaaay" and love him up.

This game evolved into my hiding different foods in harder spots (same format) and then on to him finding it on his own.  While there was interaction on my part, not as much. I would just go check the harder spots (that I knew he couldn't find) then do a yayyyyyy and love him up.

It then evolved into taking pieces of steak from my hand, (loving him up) then I got a clicker and started clicking before the steak, still using the yaaaay's and major affection.

Then on to commands and c/t.  The thing is...I don't think most clicker trainers uses treats, per se.  They use food.  This is critical.  Don't feed the dog it's usual food, then try to train it with doggy treats. 

Make the dog work for it's dinner. This is the same principal as nilif except you get more than a sit/wait for a bowl of food.  You can get many commands and behaviors from that same bowl.


My dog has just has always been a freak when it comes to food. He considered eating boring and tedious.  But I put positive reinforcements with it (yaay! getting excited, loving him up,) now he thinks it is a grand thing to do.



I really don't know if this is what you are needing or if your dog is just over stimulated and needs to work in a quieter area.

It isn't always click/treat.  Think of it as click/reinforcer, or click/reward.  The idea is that the click predicts something the dog wants.  So, houndlove's example of "sit" - then click/door opens is a good one.  Many drivey dogs work better for a quick tug, or a tossed ball than they do for food.  But, before you assume that your dog is not food motivated, be sure you aren't just using Cheerios in a distracting situation.  Sometimes, if a dog won't take food, it's due to too much distraction, or because they are too anxious (as they might be in a room full of strange dogs and handlers the first day at obedience class).  To see if you can remedy this, try a less distracting area, or up the ante by using better food (roast beef instead of Cheerios).  But, use whatever the dog considers a reward.  It may slow down the training process to have to tug for a right response, but the object isn't speed, it's communication, so that the dog knows he was accurate.
If your dog gets 8 or more correct responses in a 60 second time frame, then learning is probably taking place.  Less than that, lower your criteria (reward the butt lowering, instead of going all the way into a sit, for example).

I learned clicker training with a *very* drivey dog that was not food motivated at all.

It's actually really easy to clicker train a drivey dog--they want that tug/sprint/chase really badly all the time, so it's always available as a reinforcer and you don't have to walk around with smelly turkey hands.

IMO, this focus on treats when discussing clicker training makes it harder to figure out what it actually is. It's not really about treats. It's about making your dog's desires work for you.

My current puppy is very food motivated, but like a good vizsla he is even more motivated by praise and attention. So our nightly obedience routine is tricks in exchange for "hugs and kisses." This is as it should be--it's his favorite. Clicker training or positive reinforcement is a process in which the owner:

1. Notices the dog's desires
2. Manages the environment so that the human retains control of whatever the dog desires.
3. And lets the dog figure out how to get what he wants from the human.

If you've done a good job, your dog will throw out the "default" behaviors you have installed through repetition: sitting like a gentleman, going and lying down, sitting instead of jumping up, walking beside you instead of pulling...

Often, the dog gets what he wants. Sometimes he does not.

It became "click and treat" just because 90% of dogs out there are pretty darn motivated by food, but every book I've read on the subject, somewhere in the first chapter, will say "in this book I'll say 'click and treat' but that's just shorthand, please use whatever reinforcer your dog enjoys most, not necissarily a treat." Many will also cover using a verbal marker instead of a clicker as well, though throughout the book it will still say "click and treat" with the understanding that what that reall means is "use your chosen marker and your chosen reinforcer."