BC - aggressive to other dogs

It really sounds to me like she is consistenly over threshold in agility class - perhaps she needs to work on focus and impulse control by itself for a while before adding agility skills into the mix.  Has the owner (and/or you) read ALL of CU?  There are a ton of helpful "games" in there she could be working on, not just LAT or attention on the handler.  it really sounds to me like she's a bossy b*tch who doesn't see the reason to or have the ability to control her impulses.

 That is my impression as well.  I have read all of CU and have recommended it to the owner as well.  She states she has read all of it but "it's been a while". 

So at what point do you move on to working with the distractions of dogs though?  This dog is great and focused when there are no other dogs around.  She is pushy for sure but listens well.  Just not when there are other dogs about.

My first thought would be to find out at what distance she can see dogs but still work - just the edge of her comfort zone - and start there with just a few exercises.  get her performance 100% there and then move the dog closer by maybe 5 ft (or less if need be).  Get her good with still dogs getting closer, then go back to a distance but with the dog moving, rinse and repeat as before.

 I 100% recommend reading Control Unleashed for both you the trainer and for the owners. The author is a dog trainer who created a class specifically for dogs who are reactive in agility classes, and are always over-threshold. I cannot tell you how much I recommend this book, as I think it's just what you guys need.

OP already said she's read it, as has the owner.

Oh I see she mentioned it else and not the original post. My apologies. It sounds like the owner needs to re-read it, then. So I still recommend it. ;)

And it would depend on your definition of "truly dog aggressive dog." Is that a dog that has killed or maimed another dog? If so, then yes, some behave themselves just perfectly around other dogs a good chunk of the time.

Are you making sure she's actually motivated by what you are giving her in the counter-conditioning? Could be a dumb question, but it wouldn't hurt to look into trying a different motivator. Different kinds of treats, treats instead of tug, tug instead of treats, clicker vs. no clicker. And are you sure she's 100% comfortable at the distance you are starting at?

Also, how does this counter-conditioning look? Like, explain your process.

How is the GL working for her? Personally, I wouldn't use any sort of tool that could cause a correction or discomfort when trying to teach a dog not to react. GL's can cause a good amount of torque on the neck, and can do some damage to the neck, and some dogs even if they tolerate them find them unpleasant.

Have you tried working with the games in CU about teaching dogs not to react differently if they are on-leash versus off-leash?

Does the dog have a good relationship with her owner/handler? Have they tried massage prior to class, after class, and after any reactive episode?

stardog85

it really sounds to me like she's a bossy b*tch who doesn't see the reason to or have the ability to control her impulses.

That was my reaction too.  Maybe not real aggression, but the dog is being a reactive brat.  Not that it really matters since both are not acceptable.  I agree with Tenna about looking at the motivator.  I have a dog who is agressive and can be reactive but when his ball is out, there can be 50 other dogs doing backflips in circles around us and he wouldn't bat an eye.  If the owner can't get ahead of their dog as far as keeping focus and the threshold, then I think they need to do a lot of work outside of class.  There was a period of several months where I did not have Nikon in any classes or take him out in public with other dogs, we just worked on control at home and lots of games and fun things to build his drive and focus to the point where the other things didn't matter any more.  Now we can't wait to start agility.

 How attached is this dog to her owner? My first thought is that this may be a perfect situation to use abandonement training, if the dog cares about her owner leaving.

 What worked for one of my own girls was using a combination of "taste correction" (sour drops squirted in her mouth) couple with a negative marker (a word that means something unpleasant will happen) when she would start to react. I coupled that with click/treat whenever she ignored another dog and looked at me. It didn't take many times for her to realize that watching me was the right choice and she would even quickly gance at other dogs then look back at me like "see ho good I am!".

 We use tug and treats and mix it up while doing the cc.

This is the process we did the other day.  I worked with her to see if it would work at all since I have better timing than the owner.

I had Jess on leash attached to a harness and was using a tug toy at first.  We started about 60 feet away from the fence line and if Jess looked at the other dogs, I said "yes" and offered the tug.  We tugged a bit, then I would ask for the release, ask for sit, down or both then back to tugging.  Then just ask for a release and wait.  She would watch me, then glance at the other dogs and I would say yes then offer the tug again.  If this went ok I would move in 5 feet and repeat.

If at any time her body language got "too aroused"* then we would walk away.  

*by too aroused I mean her mouth closed, ears became more forward, tail stopped moving.  Otherwise "ok" body language was looking with mouth open and panting slightly, ears forward but relaxed and tail wagging in a slow but relaxed manner. I term it relaxed interest as opposed to excited interest.

Most of the sessions I did with her, she did not become over-aroused and she would come back to tug with each "yes".  After a few sessions of tugging and looking we would increase distance for a longer break farther from the distractions.

When her owner tried it, she was not as successful.  I think part of the problem is the owner and just her lack of timing and recognition of when things are going to change with her dog.

I have considered the abandonement aspect of it.  How should we set this up?  If we give her the run of the field, I'm not sure that leaving her will be effective....  she gets great joy from just running to run.

Personally, if she will tug and is motivated by the tug, I would have the owner work hard on really getting her drive up for that tug.  Make it not about obedience or using the tug to do the conditionioning, if that makes sense.  If you can get her to want that tug and want it all the time, I think she will just naturally become less focused on the other dogs because they will no longer matter.  The games and motivation for the toy reward should be worked outside of using it for obedience or counter conditioning.  When I first started Nikon on tugs and balls we did it in places where there were no distraction and he was comfortable.  We didn't really start obedience until he was 7 or 8 months old, only after we had worked every day on motivating him and elevating the drive with that toy.  Even now I am not concerned with him "outing" his reward toys.  I like the "look at that!" game for other dogs but do not use toys for it b/c it's counter productive for me.  If the toy is out I want the dog totally focused on that or earning that and not noticing other dogs.  The dog may also have a confidence problem if she is so reactive.  Again, something to really work on without the other dogs around at all.  Build the focus and confidence before re-introducing the dogs in the distance.  There's a gazillion ways to go about it but this is what ultimately worked for me.

 http://www.positivelytrained.com/edu_resources/Abandonment_Training.pdf

You can watch Trish doing this - the vid is only $25   http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com/Trish-King.htm

You can still do this in the open, using a long line for security.

I agree with AgileGSD that this is a common trait in some female herders (it's just part of the default hard wiring for some of them).  The goal is not to make them be the life of the party at dog park, it's to get some self control installed, and even more importantly the focus on the handler's requests, so that they do not feel empowered to just run off to snark at other dogs.  Liesje mentioned making something else more important, and for drivey dogs, the tug or the ball or the frisbee can be very useful.  My Sequoyah can sit for an hour staring at me holding her tennis ball, or knowing that I have it tucked under my sweatshirt, and she obeys every request on the slim chance that I might just pull it out;-)  Of course, that took some time, but it's a necessary part of her being able to come with me to the doggy play group every Sunday and not wreak havoc there...now, she can lie down, allow another dog to sniff her butt because mom told her "leave it" "stay" and she knows she should not get up.  But, if you have a dog for whom the object is not as important as the snarking, obviously the CU protocols or other training is in order.  I prefer a mix of these techniques to keep the dog thinking that you have given it a "job" - as that is oftent the motivator for all kinds of behavior in the herders, who will displace and do all kinds of things to make themselves feel useful.

 Some border collies are very intolerant of other dogs, even their own puppies.  Blame it first on the breeder who did not breed for "good farm dog" and probably focused on herding ability or some other performance related thing.  I doubt this dog will ever get along well with other dogs, but getting her to simply behave herself, which seems to be your goal, is well worth the effort.  I don't see anything wrong with using a head halter when in an uncontrolled situation. The dog is smart and knows when she is wearing the head halter so I don't really think there is a chance of injury. Narrowing the thresh hold, as you are doing by stretching the comfort zone will take time.  You have a smart dog there, and using praise and play to reward the dog's proper behavior is going to work best.

When another dog gets too close and the collie shows any sign of reactivity, use a new cue ("off", "that'll do";) and turn in the opposite direction of the other dog.  If the collie doesn't follow, pull her (harness works better for this than a collar).  As soon as she gives in, praise, and keep walking away from the other dog.  If the other dog is continues to get close, just keep walking away.  Since you have a controlled environment, you ought to be able to work on this so that it works.  "That'll do" is simply another "leave it" command, but you are giving the dog a specific course of action beyond leaving an immovable object.  You are teaching her to move away from these beastly dogs.  When she is off leash she should change course away from any dog when she is told that'll do.  If she can be called off of sheep, she can be called off of a dog. Will she do this on her own?  Very possibly, since she is not attacking every dog she sees, she seems to just not want to be close to them.

Maura

 Some border collies are very intolerant of other dogs, even their own puppies.  Blame it first on the breeder who did not breed for "good farm dog" and probably focused on herding ability or some other performance related thing.

 Border Collies as a breed are defined by their herding ability, that is what breeders should be breeding for and that is what makes them "good farm dogs".

 I forgot this thread existed. Huh.

Are you using the LAT game? Edit - I mean to say, how well is the LAT game working for you? It sounds like she's frequently allowed over threshold, and doesn't feel comfortable. Almost like everyone needs to take a step back to a place where the dog is obviously enjoying itself, not just behaving OK. It sounds like the dog is possibly too stressed by being too close to the stimulus, that even though she takes the reward, it doesn't really motivate her. I've worked with an Aussie that's like that - she easily gets overstimulated, and there is a point where she stops accepting treats, but even before that point when she is accepting them, it's almost a mechanical reaction and not because she wants them. I hope that makes sense.