Here's a fun one...

 Okay, I'll bite, but just in the spirit of fun and because I can't resist a behaviour challenge.

Based purely on the way Nikon carries out his commands, I couldn't decide if it was stay or down you trained with compulsion, but I'll go with down because it makes more intuitive sense.

Bet you trained stay with food alone.

Liiiiiiies. I wanna know! 

I already know...(I was reading with interest some of the threads on the GSD forum!!), however it's a pretty common behaviour that those who do use compulsion for will use for that behaviour. ;-)

The down out of motion (not the down itself, which he learned at 8 weeks with food) was trained entirely with compulsion.  The out will also be trained with compulsion.  The front position was trained with food, whereas a lot of people will train this with compulsion by making it a "safe" zone for the dog.  However I simply trained it by holding treats on my belly and having him press into my belly and follow me around that way.  The stand out of motion was entirely food.  Correction/compulsion doesn't work here for me because often the dog will sit or platz.  For this exercise the dog cannot move or take a single stutter step.  The turn and finish was done by luring with a ball.  The sit out of motion was half compulsion, half food (and of all the tricks and behaviors that one took the longest and is his least reliable, stupid sit!).  The heeling was pretty much a mix of everything (luring and rewarding with ball and food, some corrections, some compulsion, break and play, etc).

Came to the thread late, but you don't have to train either the down out of motion, or the out using compulsion;-)  I guess what I'll never understand is why you would do so if you don't have to, there being other very reliable ways to do it.

We haven't done the out yet so I'm not sure how exactly it will be done, it depends on how his protection work develops.  He outs on a tug but is not in the same level of drive on a tug that he is on a ball or sleeve.  The out on the tug was taught by locking up and then rewarding the dog with a quick re-bite when he let go.  His out on the tug is fast and very reliable but again, that's not the same.

It was use with the platz out of motion because it is very fast and effective, there may be reliable ways but there is no faster and no more effective way.  The communication is clear and the dog learned it in about 3 minutes and it has been solid ever since (so the compulsion is no longer used, and the skill is always rewarded with the ball). 

Also the dogs need to learn how to problem solve under pressure.  It is the whole point of Schutzhund being the overall test of the breed's drives, nerves, temperament, soundness, intelligence, athletic ability.  The goal is not to teach the dog to do the skill, it's much different than that.  Most of the skills a dog learns in SchH have little to no practical value, but it is exposing the strengths and weaknesses of the dog that are the purpose.  The ends do not justify the means.

 So how did you train the down out of motion?  I use pressure in the form of body language to train the drop on recall, but I don't know that I'd really call it compulsion.

Why is fast always so wonderful????  BTW, I say that knowing that a clicker trained dog can pick up new behaviors lightning fast (and exceptionally reliably), but even if that were not the case, I don't understand what the rush is. 

Anyway, food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Zy7v-EkBI

BTW, in your video, I believe I see you tugging the ball out of your dog's mouth.  I see that as just encouraging the dog *not* to out the ball.  Why not try just standing there and say "out" - sure, the dog will keep holding the ball, but once he figures out that you are not challenging him for it (patience is a virtue), and he eventually releases it  (almost all dogs will), say a marker word (yes!) and let the ball fly again for him to get.  Then what he learns is that if he does not challenge you, and obeys the "out", he gets to have some more fun (reward).  This is how some European trainers teach it - maybe it would work for you, and NO compulsion;-)

spiritdogs

BTW, in your video, I believe I see you tugging the ball out of your dog's mouth.  I see that as just encouraging the dog *not* to out the ball.  Why not try just standing there and say "out" - sure, the dog will keep holding the ball, but once he figures out that you are not challenging him for it (patience is a virtue), and he eventually releases it  (almost all dogs will), say a marker word (yes!) and let the ball fly again for him to get.  Then what he learns is that if he does not challenge you, and obeys the "out", he gets to have some more fun (reward).  This is how some European trainers teach it - maybe it would work for you, and NO compulsion;-)

 

I don't need the dog to out the ball, if I really need it back I can get it back without him giving it up on command.  That's why it hasn't really been a priority.  I'd rather have the dog really motivated for the ball than focusing on the obedience and outing it.  In the video it did slip from his mouth a few times, and I either use that as an opportunity to pop back into obedience or to keep the game going again.  If I need to do a lot of outs I switch to the tug as the reward (I use the tug when working the retrieves b/c I don't want him fighting me for the dumbell later on!).  I know exactly the method you are describing and for Nikon and dogs like him it works for everything except his ball but that is what we want, the ball drive is the monster we have intentionally created.  The method you describe how he was reinforced to auto-out on a tug (I lock up with it on my leg so there's no more fight or pressure from me and he spits it out).  The TD will choke the dogs off the ball, which I don't personally like and doesn't even work with Nikon.  He's gone three minutes before and still not released it.  The choking also is a way of intentionally frustrating the dog (to lock the grip) similar to back-tying and with Nikon it brings out even more fight.  To get it back right away you can give him a quick flanking and zap back into a prey chase before he even realizes he spit the ball.  There's a lot of methods for SchH and the one we use doesn't really prioritize an out.  I've seen many obedience people (like AKC obedience, not SchH) who are obsessed about their dog outing, like they refuse to even tug or use toy rewards unless their dog has a 100% reliable out and when I watch them try to "play" with their dog, it's really more of an obedience exercise itself than just letting loose with the dog and breaking into play.  I've seen people say things like "you shouldn't tug with your dog unless you have control over the game".  Now to me that makes no sense b/c tugging IS about the game and not about control.  The out is something that he will learn reliably when he is at that point in the training and the work.  On his tug he actually auto-outs (if I lock up, he outs on his own....I only say it and you only hear me saying it in the indoor video just to throw in some classical conditioning).  I predict that he will auto-out on the sleeve fairly easily as well because he works much more in defense and fight than in prey drive (it's often the prey dogs that get really dirty and chewy on the sleeve, want to rip it off and kill it).

It's not the fast that is important but knowing whether or not the dog can work through pressure.  I think I've already explained this a gazillion times so we can agree to disagree.  Clicker training a dog all of his SchH skills is really setting that dog up for failure later on, not to mention that it doesn't tell you anything about your DOG, only that you are a good clicker trainer and the dog likes clicker training (haven't yet met one that doesn't).

stardog85

 So how did you train the down out of motion?  I use pressure in the form of body language to train the drop on recall, but I don't know that I'd really call it compulsion.

If the dog had been imprinted on an e-collar we would have used that but he wasn't and it's not fair to just slap one on and work away, so he was trained using a prong.  He already knew "platz", but since dogs are so contextual that doesn't instantly translate into "platz at my side and stay while I'm running away from you".  So, we heel along, give the command, and pop the collar.  He does the platz, gets released, and gets to play with the ball.  After maybe just 3-4 reps of this he figures out that the platz avoids or turns off that collar pop and that's that, you have your down out of motion.  Nikon's send time ever doing it, the TD said it was one of the best ones he'd ever seen - fast and correct, and the dog was animated and drive leading up to it and anticipating the release for the ball (not acting like a sensitive dog who's being overcorrected).  If the dog has the right head and is working in drive like he should be, he will not shut down on you.  If he's shutting down or starting to show avoidance or anticipate the platz, then he's either not in drive enough to work through the pressure, he's not mature enough, and/or he's just not the right temperament for the work.

The down on the send out is trained differently.  Almost all SchH people train it with a target and train the dog to down on that target.  Then in trial when you send the dog out he's running super fast thinking his ball/toy/plate of food is out there. 

Liesje

The out is something that he will learn reliably when he is at that point in the training and the work.  On his tug he actually auto-outs (if I lock up, he outs on his own....I only say it and you only hear me saying it in the indoor video just to throw in some classical conditioning).  I predict that he will auto-out on the sleeve fairly easily as well because he works much more in defense and fight than in prey drive (it's often the prey dogs that get really dirty and chewy on the sleeve, want to rip it off and kill it).

It's not the fast that is important but knowing whether or not the dog can work through pressure.  I think I've already explained this a gazillion times so we can agree to disagree.  Clicker training a dog all of his SchH skills is really setting that dog up for failure later on, not to mention that it doesn't tell you anything about your DOG, only that you are a good clicker trainer and the dog likes clicker training (haven't yet met one that doesn't).

My dog was trained to out on the tug just like yours (locking up the tug so the fun is over, and as soon as he outs, the games starts again).  We did the same thing with the sleeve.  The helper would drive the dog, then stop and hold the sleeve still.  Rafe auto-outed the first time we tried it, and as far as I can remember he's never not outed when asked.  From the dogs I've seen, this is the best way to train (as far as most reliable).  I'm sure there are dogs that this wouldn't work for, however, as there are some dogs that are much more serious about things and don't consider it a "game" like the tug game.  

I do have to disagree with the clicker training statement - "Clicker training a dog all of his SchH skills is really setting that dog up for failure later on..." - There is a club we've been training with in the St. Louis area that only uses clicker training.  No pinch collars, e-collars, etc. are allowed on the field.  Two of their dogs went to nationals and one got his SchHII there (the other was pulled due to injury).  I've seen them work several times and they are good.  

In regards to compulsion telling you how good your dog is - I'm not so sure.  Lorna of Incredible Dobermans posted this on the dobetalk forum...

"Patrick & I are members of the International Working dog Breeders Association. The conference was held in Belgium this year, so we were unable to attend, but our friend Paul Mundell just returned and filled us in.
One of the presentations was a study just completed called, "Comparison of stress and learning effects of three different training methods in dogs" by Esther Schalke of Germany.
The study compared methods of correction and training and measured cortisol levels to determine stress produced by each method/corrective device. Interestingly, the electric collar correction produced the least amount of stress, followed closely by the prong collar. The dogs that showed the most stress and produced the highest levels of cortisol were those trained solely with positive methods and when food was withheld as a correction, their stress levels were off the charts!
Between this study and the recent one on using dominance, the dog training world seems to be justifying the "old" methods as the ones dogs understand and deal with best. Don't know if I am correctly expressing my thought here.
One theory that I find interesting is that because dogs live in a rather violent society themselves, ( i.e, they bite to correct, or use very physical body language) they seem to deal with correction that resembles their own best - something I have tended to believe myself for years. I know it has always worked for all of my dogs over the years provided I have correctly read their sensitivity levels.
Anyway, thought I would share. When the study is actually published and/or when I get the notes from the presentation, I'll post here for those interested."

My thoughts (and this is just my opinion of the whole thing - who really knows what's going on in a dog's head?) are that training with clickers/markers is more stressful for the dog because they have to really think for themselves and figure things out instead of being more or less "shown" what to do with the traditional compulsion methods. 

Again, just my opinion.  I'm not saying you're wrong or that your training methods are wrong, just giving a different perspective.  ;)

 So if the tug on the prong gets the platz, what does a tug on a flat collar get?  It seems like in that scenario the collar tug is acting more as a signal and therefore could work just as well on a flat collar without the positve punishment aspect.  Do you signal the platz first and then give the collar correction?  Are they simultaneous?

stardog85

 So if the tug on the prong gets the platz, what does a tug on a flat collar get?  It seems like in that scenario the collar tug is acting more as a signal and therefore could work just as well on a flat collar without the positve punishment aspect.  Do you signal the platz first and then give the collar correction?  Are they simultaneous?

Flat collar would work just the same way, or e-collar.  It makes more sense when you think of it in terms of how a recall is usually trained with an e-collar.... the command is given, then the continuous stim applied, and when the dog comes the stim stops, the dog is rewarded.  At first you give the signal and then wait about half a second before the collar pop/stim starts.

Workingdoglover

Liesje

The out is something that he will learn reliably when he is at that point in the training and the work.  On his tug he actually auto-outs (if I lock up, he outs on his own....I only say it and you only hear me saying it in the indoor video just to throw in some classical conditioning).  I predict that he will auto-out on the sleeve fairly easily as well because he works much more in defense and fight than in prey drive (it's often the prey dogs that get really dirty and chewy on the sleeve, want to rip it off and kill it).

It's not the fast that is important but knowing whether or not the dog can work through pressure.  I think I've already explained this a gazillion times so we can agree to disagree.  Clicker training a dog all of his SchH skills is really setting that dog up for failure later on, not to mention that it doesn't tell you anything about your DOG, only that you are a good clicker trainer and the dog likes clicker training (haven't yet met one that doesn't).

 

My dog was trained to out on the tug just like yours (locking up the tug so the fun is over, and as soon as he outs, the games starts again).  We did the same thing with the sleeve.  The helper would drive the dog, then stop and hold the sleeve still.  Rafe auto-outed the first time we tried it, and as far as I can remember he's never not outed when asked.  From the dogs I've seen, this is the best way to train (as far as most reliable).  I'm sure there are dogs that this wouldn't work for, however, as there are some dogs that are much more serious about things and don't consider it a "game" like the tug game.  

I do have to disagree with the clicker training statement - "Clicker training a dog all of his SchH skills is really setting that dog up for failure later on..." - There is a club we've been training with in the St. Louis area that only uses clicker training.  No pinch collars, e-collars, etc. are allowed on the field.  Two of their dogs went to nationals and one got his SchHII there (the other was pulled due to injury).  I've seen them work several times and they are good.  

In regards to compulsion telling you how good your dog is - I'm not so sure.  Lorna of Incredible Dobermans posted this on the dobetalk forum...

"Patrick & I are members of the International Working dog Breeders Association. The conference was held in Belgium this year, so we were unable to attend, but our friend Paul Mundell just returned and filled us in.
One of the presentations was a study just completed called, "Comparison of stress and learning effects of three different training methods in dogs" by Esther Schalke of Germany.
The study compared methods of correction and training and measured cortisol levels to determine stress produced by each method/corrective device. Interestingly, the electric collar correction produced the least amount of stress, followed closely by the prong collar. The dogs that showed the most stress and produced the highest levels of cortisol were those trained solely with positive methods and when food was withheld as a correction, their stress levels were off the charts!
Between this study and the recent one on using dominance, the dog training world seems to be justifying the "old" methods as the ones dogs understand and deal with best. Don't know if I am correctly expressing my thought here.
One theory that I find interesting is that because dogs live in a rather violent society themselves, ( i.e, they bite to correct, or use very physical body language) they seem to deal with correction that resembles their own best - something I have tended to believe myself for years. I know it has always worked for all of my dogs over the years provided I have correctly read their sensitivity levels.
Anyway, thought I would share. When the study is actually published and/or when I get the notes from the presentation, I'll post here for those interested."

My thoughts (and this is just my opinion of the whole thing - who really knows what's going on in a dog's head?) are that training with clickers/markers is more stressful for the dog because they have to really think for themselves and figure things out instead of being more or less "shown" what to do with the traditional compulsion methods. 

Again, just my opinion.  I'm not saying you're wrong or that your training methods are wrong, just giving a different perspective.  ;)

I think they are all valid points.  That is why I train five different skills five different ways.  I think the variety is good for the dog's mind, and good for what we are doing SchH for.  Right now we've mainly been working on the retrieve which I am doing entirely with clicker.  I've spent about a week clicker training him the jump technique, and as soon as I get the right dumbell I'll backchain it with the clicker so he learns to hold it and out it.  I can see how withholding the food would increase stress and in Nikon's case I believe that to be true.  Show him some yummy treats, take them out of reach and he'd be pacing and whining for sure.  But I'm not sure that stress and drive should be treated the same.  I think the drive that is built up with the ball and the prey/play activities is very important too.  I want the dog to work through stress in drive and sometimes I don't want that stress to be associated with the motivator.  So if he is super motivated by the food I don't always want to cause stress in the form of withholding the food. 

However I don't agree that compulsive methods are always "showing" the dog what to do.  The dog has to learn what behavior turns of the negative reinforcement.  Using a prong correction for the platz is not to phsyically force the dog into platz position.  I personally think it works better with an e-collar but like I said he hasn't done any imprinting with it so it wasn't an option.  It's like the Michael Ellis training video where he talks about training a dog to yeild to leash pressure being the most basic example of negative reinforcement and asking the dog to work through pressure, even this method which I see used all the time by "positive only" trainers.