Drives vs. Rewards; Working IN Drive vs. Training...

huski

My point is that once the dog is in drive it looks the same and is the same 'state' no matter what you used to get them there. I'm not talking about food and prey being the same, I'm talking about working a dog IN food and prey drive being the same.

The evidence is that it is probably not. A more comprehenisve system of analysis than drive only analysis would suggest that a dog looking or foraging for food is in a different state than a dog looking for or playing with a prey item. Neurochemically there is a substantial intersection of the chemicals involved but the outcomes can be quite different. The two states are believed to be antagonistc.

To really find out, we would have to use (at this stage of technology) methods that are quite intrusive  or to check by elimination.We know that certain drugs can block certain states . Normally researchers look at using small doses of opiods and Naltrexone commonally.

Another method is  to look at the electrical signature of the waveforms coming from the brain. This again is not as easy as it sounds without affecting the observation of the dog.But some work has been done.

Another method is to observe the density of brain activity, again quite technically difficult. Some very interesting work has been done here.

It is entirely incorrect to assert that  "it looks the same and is the same 'state' no matter what you used to get them there." without substanial further evidence.

poodleOwned

It is entirely incorrect to assert that  "it looks the same and is the same 'state' no matter what you used to get them there." without substanial further evidence.

I am entitled to my opinion and until there is substantial evidence to refute that a dog train in food drive and a dog trained in prey drive looks and is completely and utterly different, despite showing the exact same body language and mannerisms and actions, I will stand by my opinion.

Does it have to be "completely and utterly" different?

I'm telling you, I don't think it looks exactly the same to me. It looks very similar, but it doesn't look exactly the same. I'd like to video it to show what I'm talking about, but I don't hold out a lot of hope of getting footage of Erik in an equal level of drive for food and play, and even if I did, he's not trained in any kind of particularly deliberate way. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I fancy I can see the intent in his eyes.

I think it looks exactly the same to you because you're really using play drive more than food drive. Hey, do you have any recent videos of training Daisy? It might help to illustrate your point.  

corvus

Does it have to be "completely and utterly" different?

I'm telling you, I don't think it looks exactly the same to me. It looks very similar, but it doesn't look exactly the same. I'd like to video it to show what I'm talking about, but I don't hold out a lot of hope of getting footage of Erik in an equal level of drive for food and play, and even if I did, he's not trained in any kind of particularly deliberate way. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I fancy I can see the intent in his eyes.

*shrug* to me I see no difference in Daisy when she chases food that's in my hand vs when she chases a prey item that's in my hand. Same result, different 'reward' to get her there. In both situation she's working in drive. That I used food instead of a prey item doesn't change the fact I can get her in the same state with food as I can with a toy (more so with food as she's far more food motivated).

I think it looks exactly the same to you because you're really using play drive more than food drive. Hey, do you have any recent videos of training Daisy? It might help to illustrate your point.  

I have lots of videos ;) But will have to see if I can find a good one to illustrate my point. I wouldn't want to post anything that makes PoodleOwned question my relationship with my dog again or makes him think that I'm not super proud of her. I already know what he thinks of my trainer, and I know that would make him far more likely to judge anything I post in a negative way.

Just for giggles...a Susan Garret video I happen to love about how "bad trainers" inadvertantly create the best tugging monsters..... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA

That's pretty funny. It's true though - "hitting" a dog will definitely get his drive going. I think sometimes we are too gentle with our dogs when we play - no wonder they prefer to play with their own kind. It's always a lot more fun when some punches and kicks are involved!

poodleOwned, if I ever see daylight again (it's dark when I go to work and dark when I get home) I want to make a video of my dog backtied and I need you to explain the "prey" vs. "play" and exactly how you can tell.

huski

I have lots of videos ;) But will have to see if I can find a good one to illustrate my point. I wouldn't want to post anything that makes PoodleOwned question my relationship with my dog again or makes him think that I'm not super proud of her.

Hi Huski

I think you are getting me wrong. You are reacting without checking things out. One thing that is really important to get your dog to the starting post and in drive is your attitude. Many dogs wont kick into drive if they feel that their handler is nervous or unsure. To have even ½ a belief that your dog by breed shouldn't be there because that is what everyone else thinks so a not a great start. I am not the baddie here. I truly wonder why there are not more beagles competing.

I have similar difficulties with my dog Luci. You might like to check how many mini poodles do tracking. Not a lot. I have a look at say goldies, GSDs starting out and they are often a whole lot drivier and easier to start but at the end of the day Luci is a brillant reliable tracker once we had stopped comparing her to a goldie,GSD or in my case an my old lab and trained her to suit her. She has some qualities that many of these dogs don't have which I use. Certainly when I was asked to use her to find an escaped dog the other day I knew that she could do it and acted on that premise.

When it comes to Obedience, I could roll out a ton of excuses as to why Luci and myself shouldn't be at the starting post in UD. Luci has a removed bottom canine... therefore retrieves should be hard,(rubbish just change the dumb bell position), she has been absolutely pole axed by noise phobias in the past, (that one comes under the convenient excuse of “weak nerve” I think), but with careful counter conditioning she has really come right. Then when you get there, many bigger dog owners truly believe that all your dog is good for is to be a black prey item for their dogs, and it is entirely your responsibility to keep their ***** dogs off yours.:(((

Then there are my own excuses. Believe you me when I look at the bottom bit of yet another specialists referal and read what is medically wrong with me, I do freak out for a while. I find it hard to learn very basic physical things, it is something that I was born with and will never go away but I don't accept as a limitation.. My dog is tiny and I can't see her. I am quite tall and I have quite poor vision in my left eye. Sometimes she finds my sheer size intimidating. I have to tone down my signals and commands so I don't frighten her.

What works for me , and many fellow competitors is to learn to block all of these things as we approach the starting line, to believe very deeply that we have the best dog in the world on our left hand side and to not accept for one minute ignorant breed prejudice We then concentrate on what we need to do to help our best dogs achieve what they can achieve. One of the reasons why I suggest that you develop some play drive is that it can legitimately use it in the ring and it helps keep your dog up in the ring.

Liesje

poodleOwned, if I ever see daylight again (it's dark when I go to work and dark when I get home) I want to make a video of my dog backtied and I need you to explain the "prey" vs. "play" and exactly how you can tell.

Hi

It is dam hard to tell, and you need contextual evidence. That is the point, play is a rehearsal. One of the things that i think sperates Play from Prey in POODLES is the growl. In Prey they don't growl at all.Their body posture is a little more stiff. In Play i thnk that you are less likely to loose fine motor control. I note that the GSDs that i train with seem to go into prey over different things than my poodles. I train mostly with working line GSDs If i let my poodles go after a dumb bell that has been just very freshly launched, they attack it, whereas GSDs are less likely too. But swirl a tuggy or sleeve or roll  around and many  GSDs really seem to get good and  mean, where as poodles seem to think it is a huge game

Another illustration is that my two Poodles get on pretty well. The indulge in a lot of rough and tumble play. If i took the sound track off, and reduced the context, you would think (and many have) that they are about to kill each other. As soon as i turn the sound track on, you would smile and go isn't that cute.

I will put up some videos soon, so that you can see what i mean .I have enjoyed and learnt form your contributions. These dam dogs, they are so different. :)))

 Yeeeeah, but huski, that's just it! Chasing food and chasing toys looks the same.... because it's chasing.

Okay, maybe I haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about, but prey and play drive seem pretty freaking different to me. To me, there's definitely a grey area where prey drive starts creeping in to play, but Pyry shaking a rat looks completely different to Pyry shaking a toy, and not just because one has a little mousey tail. Again, it's intent. Pyry shakes a toy to shake, but he shakes a rat to kill it. I think you can tell that intent, even where play drive gets very intense.

Jason L

no wonder they prefer to play with their own kind. It's always a lot more fun when some punches and kicks are involved!

You are on to one of my secrets!!! My youger poodle likes really being shoved around. I use my feet to do it. You wont get me to do it on a public area though, i am afraid that i will get reported for mistreating my dog.

My older girl likes a bit of shoving around too. It really arcs her up. 

corvus

To me, there's definitely a grey area where prey drive starts creeping in to play, but Pyry shaking a rat looks completely different to Pyry shaking a toy, and not just because one has a little mousey tail. Again, it's intent. Pyry shakes a toy to shake, but he shakes a rat to kill it. I think you can tell that intent, even where play drive gets very intense.

That is the crux. Observing my poodles it is pretty easy to check out Prey and Play. The body set is so different, and the shake is quicker. In play mode all of that is there but this playful growl starts up. The body action is freer, and social bonds still exist. Just becuase Luci races out to the glove and gives it a shake (points off BTW) doesn't mean she is in Prey mode.

I am just starting to observe other breeds too. It is really really interesting. 

corvus

Sometimes I initiate foraging trips. I don't think I can use that in training, but I can use it in general conditioning.

I often use this principle as an end reward in tracking. Both dogs love nothing better than to mosey about sniffing and checking everything out.

I think that the principal of random reinforcement is the very beginnings of the origin of understanding that novelty and uncertainty are often stimuli for dogs . This mode is bounded by the fear of some novel stimuli but in my dogs this fear seems to be at a very low level.

Foraging is about tracking down new intersting stuff, novel stimuli. One of the great things about behavourism is that it gave us a great framework for understanding how learning can happen. One of the poorest things was the extension of behavourist experimental conditions into the motivation of animas to perform. When i motivate my dogs , i try to be so novel , erratic and intersting  with my rewards. It is so different for each dog. Unlike many i don't see the need in practice or theory to get the reward off me. I try to be that great erratic foraging trip...

corvus

 Yeeeeah, but huski, that's just it! Chasing food and chasing toys looks the same.... because it's chasing.

Okay, maybe I haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about, but prey and play drive seem pretty freaking different to me. To me, there's definitely a grey area where prey drive starts creeping in to play, but Pyry shaking a rat looks completely different to Pyry shaking a toy, and not just because one has a little mousey tail. Again, it's intent. Pyry shakes a toy to shake, but he shakes a rat to kill it. I think you can tell that intent, even where play drive gets very intense.

I don't agree that you can't get the same ferocity. I think it's the same reason why some dogs will chase live animals but won't chase a tug. They've learned to get more drive satisfaction and excitement from chasing something 'live'. There's a history of reward and drive satisfaction. If you can't get the same level of drive with a tug you aren't trying hard enough ;)

Micha is very prey driven and I can tell you watching him go after a possum and watching him going after his favourite squeaky toy, once I've gotten him worked up for it, is the same. He doesn't think about the difference between an object being alive vs an object being dead, he is reacting to a moving object with the urge to chase and grab it. He never eats anything he kills, and treats it just like he would a toy, throwing it around and running after it and bringing it to me to throw for him. I guarantee you he does not consider the difference between a live object and a toy. He doesn't grab a possum with the intent to kill it anymore than he grabs his squeaky toy to "kill" it.

poodleOwned

I think you are getting me wrong. You are reacting without checking things out. One thing that is really important to get your dog to the starting post and in drive is your attitude. Many dogs wont kick into drive if they feel that their handler is nervous or unsure. To have even ½ a belief that your dog by breed shouldn't be there because that is what everyone else thinks so a not a great start. I am not the baddie here. I truly wonder why there are not more beagles competing.

No, I'm not "getting you wrong". You made a very clear judgment about my dog and I, based on no "evidence" whatsoever. What do I need to "check out" past the judgmental post you made based on no indication from me that I doubt my dog's capability?

My dog has no problem kicking into drive and we have a great bond, I'm very proud of her and I know she is more than capable of competing at a successful level. If I am nervous when we start trialling it won't be because I'm worried about her but because I'm worried about my novice handling skills!

What works for me , and many fellow competitors is to learn to block all of these things as we approach the starting line, to believe very deeply that we have the best dog in the world on our left hand side and to not accept for one minute ignorant breed prejudice We then concentrate on what we need to do to help our best dogs achieve what they can achieve. One of the reasons why I suggest that you develop some play drive is that it can legitimately use it in the ring and it helps keep your dog up in the ring.  

As I've said a few times now, I can't wait to get my girl out there so I can show them that she's not only great for a beagle but great for a dog.

I use pack/play drive a lot in my training, something I've also said a few times... not sure why you think I don't??