Establishing Bite Inhibition in Puppies

It sounds like you are almost saying that it's near impossible to "cure" a dog with bite inhibition problems if they are not taught appropriately from puppy hood?

I would have to disagree that punishment "almost never works". There are many instances where punishment not only works well, but is appropriate.

I agree it's important to teach pups proper bite inhibition, but what do you do with adult dogs who come to you with bite inhibition issues? How do you go about fixing the problem? 

huski

It sounds like you are almost saying that it's near impossible to "cure" a dog with bite inhibition problems if they are not taught appropriately from puppy hood?

I would have to disagree that punishment "almost never works". There are many instances where punishment not only works well, but is appropriate.

I agree it's important to teach pups proper bite inhibition, but what do you do with adult dogs who come to you with bite inhibition issues? How do you go about fixing the problem? 

Maybe a new thread on Bite Inhibition in Adult Dogs would be best so not to derail this thread.

Anne I agree 100%  For River who tends to have a bit of aggression at times, much less now that he is older the puppy hood teaching for bite inhabitation is what I believe saved us from ever having a bite from him.   Even in play, his mouth is so soft.   Brooke is a rescue very subordinate dog very soft mouth - we were lucky.   Hailie my pug (daughters dog) has an extremely hard mouth, my daughter never taught inhibition as a pup, only ruff and riled play - one reason my DH received 8 stitches in his lip.     Very good thread.

 I'm not saying it's impossible to teach a dog to inhibit its bite in adulthood, but in my opinion, it is a lot harder than simply doing it correctly from square one.  An adult dog will already have a strongly established default and so any remediation is always working against that.  The biggest single factor in whether a dog can modify its behavior, once the default is established, is whether or not the humans in its life can manage the protocols.  But, frankly, I'd rather have a dog that inhibits the bite on its own, than one which you must constantly cue.  The fact is that most dogs with hard mouths always have hard mouths - because humans resort to punishments that the dog does not understand, or which are in fact just "harassment" and not really sufficient to eliminate the behavior.  They don't often want to go through a behavior modification procedure that can take months and must be faithfully followed to correct *any* behavior, which is why the so called "yank & crank" and e-collar guys still get lots of business:-((   I'm not here to argue the old positive vs correction argument, but I will say that puppies that play with others and that go to puppy class (positive) do better in the bite department than those that don't.  I have people call me every day that went to "other" puppy classes, or who did not get their dogs socialized early.  If those other classes worked so well, why are many of the dogs that come out of them still nipping and graduating to hard biting at age 6-10 months!!!????  I'm not just blowing hot air here - this is what I deal with every day.  I just got a call from a lady with a dog (under 25 pounds) whose trainer put it in a prong collar, "corrected" it a lot, and now the dog is biting the family members in retaliation (at age 2 - the dog is now mature and has finally had enough).

 Of course punishment works, because if it doesn't you didn't punish. However, if it does work, you still didn't teach the dog what he should do.

I got super lucky with Nikon. He was never, ever mouthy as a puppy or young dog.  It saved me a lot of trouble, because in his line of "work", you really have to be careful not to squash all the prey drive and good grips when the dog is young.  At his age now, he is either biting or he's not, if that makes sense.  When he is biting, I want a full, hard, crushing grip.  Yes, even when using toys for play and obedience.  If I'm tapping into his natural drives, then I don't think it's fair to expect him to only bite *half* as hard, or let go twice as fast, for example.  So for us it's not really a matter of "bite inhibition", but what is appropriate for biting, and what is not.  Luckily he never had to learn that biting hands, clothes, and feet is not appropriate b/c he never tried.

One thing I often see a lot in young GSDs is that they not only lack bite inhibition, but when they are being mouthy at their owners, it's because they are redirecting their frustration over something else.  So not only does the owner need to address the mouthiness and figure out how to stop it, but understand why they dog is treating them like garbage in the first place and what is frustrating the dog to that behavior.

 It's also much easier to teach a puppy not to pull on the leash, if you do it in the beginning, and not to pee in the house if you do it in the beginning. Peeing in the house and pulling on the leash land dogs in shelters, but they don't get on the news. I think that is the idea. Start early with proper training, and you never end up with a major issue.

spiritdogs

 I'm not saying it's impossible to teach a dog to inhibit its bite in adulthood, but in my opinion, it is a lot harder than simply doing it correctly from square one.

I agree, any behaviour that has become a habit in a pup can get worse as they get older especially because they've become bigger, faster and stronger. 

I'm not here to argue the old positive vs correction argument, but I will say that puppies that play with others and that go to puppy class (positive) do better in the bite department than those that don't.  I have people call me every day that went to "other" puppy classes, or who did not get their dogs socialized early.  If those other classes worked so well, why are many of the dogs that come out of them still nipping and graduating to hard biting at age 6-10 months!!!???? 

I guess you wouldn't hear from the people who have used punishment or corrections successfully, would you? I could tell you horror stories caused by absolutely useless "purely positive" trainers and I could tell you endlessly about the awful DELTA qualified trainer who ran a puppy pre-school I took one of my dogs to as well. That there are bad trainers out there who use punishment or correction doesn't mean anything to me just as I'm sure the bad positive trainers out there don't change your opinion that the methods can work well. I know that using punishment and corrections in training is not always a bad thing when they are used appropriately.

My dogs have excellent bite inhibition and I have used punishments or corrections with them in some instances - so I'm talking from my own POV when I say that punishments and corrections can work well.

I'm not just blowing hot air here - this is what I deal with every day.  I just got a call from a lady with a dog (under 25 pounds) whose trainer put it in a prong collar, "corrected" it a lot, and now the dog is biting the family members in retaliation (at age 2 - the dog is now mature and has finally had enough).

Then there's something amiss with the way they are using it or the way they've been taught to use it. I've seen head collars completely shut dogs down and I've seen them used incorrectly numerous times, does that mean they should never be used? I've seen a huge number of dogs trained on prongs and e-collars with excellent results; these dogs maintain happy, alert positive body language the entire time they are worked on the tool - in these instances the tools are being used appropriately and as part of a solid training program (that also incorporates much positive reinforcement). In some instances they are dogs who have been taken to see DELTA trainers or purely positive trainers and have been told the dog is better off PTS. So yeah - the fact that methods or tools can be used incorrectly doesn't change my opinion nor experience that they can be used with great results.

Liesje

I got super lucky with Nikon. He was never, ever mouthy as a puppy or young dog.  It saved me a lot of trouble, because in his line of "work", you really have to be careful not to squash all the prey drive and good grips when the dog is young.  At his age now, he is either biting or he's not, if that makes sense.  When he is biting, I want a full, hard, crushing grip.  Yes, even when using toys for play and obedience.  If I'm tapping into his natural drives, then I don't think it's fair to expect him to only bite *half* as hard, or let go twice as fast, for example.  So for us it's not really a matter of "bite inhibition", but what is appropriate for biting, and what is not.  Luckily he never had to learn that biting hands, clothes, and feet is not appropriate b/c he never tried.

I totally agree with you here - one of the things I do when teaching my pups not to bite is redirecting them to something like a tug so they can learn what they CAN bite. I find it's far easier to give the dog an outlet for that energy so they learn not just what isn't allowed but what is allowed, too.

 Totally agree with everyone who says they teach the dogs what they can bite. Luke is the first dog I got as a young puppy. I got him at 11 weeks old. He is the first dog I have had who is appropriate with his mouth at his age. There's some occassional chewing of stuff he shouldn't chew, but no teeth on skin or clothing. I also did swap him things when he got something he shouldn't have, and he usually does now pick something that belongs to him. Maybe this made the difference, maybe it didn't but Luke went to two puppy classes. The one was Petsmart, but it was ok while the first teacher was there. We only went once when the dopey kid was teaching it. The second one was at our regular place, a good place.  A bad puppy class can be more than worthless, but a good one is worth more than the money you pay for it.

A bad puppy class can be more than worthless, but a good one is worth more than the money you pay for it.

So true.  And I believe that the best puppy classes are ones where there is supervised (by a trainer who knows behavior) off leash play.  But, the use of chew toys to redirect puppy teeth onto is a good idea, and beats the heck out of the old "no bite" and whatever mean things people used to do to puppy mouths to try to stop the nipping...

huski

Then there's something amiss with the way they are using it or the way they've been taught to use it.

Yeah... and the same can obviously be said for the bad experiences you have had with positive trainers.

I'd just like to mention that with both my recent pups I've had a little trouble with my minimally aversive methods to curb biting. Freezing, I have discovered, does not in general help convince a herder that he should stop biting your ankles everytime you move. Yelping helps a fair bit right up until the puppy is really worked up or would like to tell you that you are a big sissy or that he thinks you suck for not giving him ice cream right now. Yelping was all I really needed for Kivi, who always had a soft mouth, but Erik at times deliberately bites hard. He will only do it once and when you shriek he gruffs and goes off to subject Kivi's legs to some biting instead, but once is too often when it leaves bruises. I have found with him that a combination of pre-emptively asking for a sit or a series of sits and slow motion walking is finally something that is working quickly and reliably enough to save us from more bruises. Habits are our best friend and worst enemy. Definitely getting to a toy to toss or tug with helps as well. It's getting to the toy if you don't have one on you that was causing so much frustation in our household. Slow motion walking has made life far more bearable! Erik gets bored of waiting for you to pick up the pace and goes to find something else to have fun with.

I have tried hard not to use punishments on Erik, though. He's one of those "Yeah, well I hate you!" dogs that might just chomp on you again for emphasis. He's always ready to take it to the next level, which is great for training, but not so great for punishments. I'm careful not to provoke something I will inevitably have to be mean about to handle it safely.

Ignoring is nice, but it's not gonna happen if your puppy just gave you a bruising bite. My puppy has been extensively socialised, but is hesitant to use his teeth on people and dogs he doesn't know, so he's only learning from Kivi, who will let him bite really hard. And us, who he is learning not to bite at all, thankfully. I don't envision we will have any troubles with him in the long run as the vast majority of the time he's not interested in biting us at all, and he's not interested in biting people he doesn't know, and when he's not about to explode from the sheer excitement of being alive, he is pretty gentle with his teeth when he does want to have a gnaw. It's just those moments when he's way over-excited, and we are already starting him on some exercises to help him learn to control his impulses and his excitement.

 The first puppy class we went to was a petsmart one, which did at first have a decent trainer. Mostly on leash, some off leash playing. The second class was in the style of the classes in the videos at Dr. Dunbar's site, dogstardaily.com. Almost completely off leash, and lots of play. It was completely different than any puppy class I have been in, but if you can find one like this with a good trainer, I'd say it's must do.

corvus

huski

Then there's something amiss with the way they are using it or the way they've been taught to use it.

 

Yeah... and the same can obviously be said for the bad experiences you have had with positive trainers.

Well yeah obviously - that was kind of the point I was getting at :) Although I have to admit I haven't run into many of the "traditional" yank-em-bout trainers that are talked about so often on forums like this. All my training is reward based and every trainer I know who uses tools like prongs and e-collars are all reward based trainers too.

griffinej5

The second class was in the style of the classes in the videos at Dr. Dunbar's site, dogstardaily.com. Almost completely off leash, and lots of play. It was completely different than any puppy class I have been in, but if you can find one like this with a good trainer, I'd say it's must do.

I wish. I'm flat out even finding a clicker class. Certainly haven't located a puppy class anything like that. Still, the ones I have found have been mostly positive and at least the pups get to see other pups and have a little meet and greet.