video-Interesting video of puppy disciplining

espencer

spiritdogs

Talk about seeing what you want to see.....the action is *NOT* an "alpha roll.".......

My same feelings from when we talk about "kicks", "jabs", "hangs" etc. Seeing what you want (or not want) to see. Nothing like watching dogs doing it themselves to try to justify what people are so against to. I love it!!!!

spiritdogs

She was telling the pup that she didn't want to be bitten, but was not..... frightening, or hurting the pup

That's exactly an alpha roll and the point of doing it

Putting a paw over a pup is an alpha roll???? LMAO 

rwbeagles

moving on to another aspect of the video. What do you make of the keep away game? I worried at first that Cleo was stressed about having to share her pumpkin, BUT her body language was so loose and she kept almost baiting them with it.

Hunting training?

Good fun?

Deliberate baiting?

Perhaps just telling some really intent pups that it was her resource and she would share when she wanted to share - which she did as soon as the pups looked like they were aware that it did belong to her and that she was giving permission.  I noticed that she took the pumpkin away when the forward pup got into her space, but was inclined to let them have a lap at it when they were all respectful.   Possession is 10/10 of the law with dogs:-))

huski

An alpha roll is pinning another dog down  to the ground by it's throat and looking it in the eye until it submits completely........according to the people who use it

So amusing, that would be a "dumb people alpha roll", no wonder why you consider it outdated and dangerous. You wont gain anything doing it like that for sure. Just like if i build a sand castle and i consider it a real castle.

I'm sure you like the "dumb people alpha roll" better because that gives you and extra tool to dislike even the professionals who do it right. But it would be like if a plumber does a crappy job at my house and i consider ALL plumbers in general crappy ones.

spiritdogs

Putting a paw over a pup is an alpha roll???? LMAO 

Do you think alpha rolls are done touch less???? LMAO. Do you like to stick to the "dumb people alpha roll" too?

It's so amazing that we are seeing a dog actually doing it to another one and you still live on denial. This is the greatest thread ever!!!

Here it's a link to a thread in this forum about alpha rolls (including video discussion). It's 35 pages long. All the answers are there, it's useless to turn this thread into a 35 pages thread too:

http://community.dog.com/forums/t/67902.aspx?PageIndex=1

rwbeagles

moving on to another aspect of the video. What do you make of the keep away game? I worried at first that Cleo was stressed about having to share her pumpkin, BUT her body language was so loose and she kept almost baiting them with it.

Hunting training?

Good fun?

Deliberate baiting?

I love these guys.  It looked to me like Cleo was baiting them....trying to tire them out or bore them enough to leave her alone.  It worked for a couple of seconds. 

 The usual 'banter' between SD and spence aside, you can't argue about whether something is or is not an alpha roll until you can agree on what an alpha roll is.

I see espencer's point, in that if you look at an alpha roll as one dog physically signalling their strength over another, this could be an alpha roll, although you don't know if Cleo was just trying to protect herself from fiesty puppy teeth. Sometimes when Erik gets very bitey, Kivi will squish him with a paw or his chest. I've never really seen that as Kivi signalling his physical dominance over Erik, because Kivi will wait until Erik is everywhere with those teeth and Kivi wants respite before he will do it. It just oozes this sense of "Argh! Crazy puppy! Help!"

I don't think you can say it's an alpha roll if there was no physicality to it. That's a bit of a stretch. One would think a roll would need to be involved somewhere for it to be called an alpha roll. There are lots of different ways a dog can signal their intent to win a contest, and it would be very simplistic to call them all an alpha roll. 

This reminds me of walking the dogs with my partner yesterday, who seemed determined to corrupt all my work with Erik so far by naming behaviours that were not quite what I had been teaching him were what those names meant. It made me realise that I see behaviour as loads of little specific things that make up one larger specific thing whereas my partner sees broad approximations. I think that to avoid confusion, you really have to acknowledge every single minor variation in behaviour. Which is why I think we should stick to a specific definition of alpha rolls that at least involves one dog rolling or being rolled. Please use meaningful descriptions, people!

corvus

I don't think you can say it's an alpha roll if there was no physicality to it. That's a bit of a stretch. One would think a roll would need to be involved somewhere for it to be called an alpha roll.  There are lots of different ways a dog can signal their intent to win a contest, and it would be very simplistic to call them all an alpha roll. 

 Good point. To say this is an "alpha roll" we would have to know that Cleo's goal was to prove dominance and that the puppy was attempting to be dominant. Her behavior was much like what I see mom dogs do with their younger puppies who are being "bratty" - grab them and make a display of being scary (then they usually end with cleaning them for good measure LOL). I very much doubt that young puppies ever think they are "dominant" over adult dogs, regardless of how annoying they may be towards them at times.

I very much doubt that young puppies ever think they are "dominant" over adult dogs, regardless of how annoying they may be towards them at times.

I doubt it, too.  But, the point is that, while an adult may consider a pup annoying, they almost never do anything really serious about it until the pup has secondary teeth, between 4-5 months of age.  That's when they generally run out of "puppy license."  

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Please remain on the topic of discussion - too many of these threads become way off topic andf the same old arguments and poking start again.

If you want to have a laugh at someone's expense or discuss marketing strategies do it elsewhere

thanks

 I finally got round to watching it.... it's a great video, and I've been hankering after something like like this for ages, because I have alays wondered at the efficacy of this manouvure - does it work, and if so WHY, and if it works for dogs does that mean it will work for us too?

IMO the main puppy disciplining was happening throughout most of the video.  The pups were being bratty about the pumpkin, so she took it away.  It doesn't look like play behaviour to me.  Looks like an act of "dominance" to me - the message is pretty clear, even if you are blind, deaf and dumb.  "This resource is MINE."  Virtually all done without overt confrontation, physicality, aggression... in fact she is so calm as to be nonchalant about it.  If we can take anything away from dog-dog interactions, anything to emulate, THIS is the part that is most relevant, and easiest and safest to copy.  This is gold, IMO.

I have heard of two main definitions of an alpha roll.  One is a scary display with the dog being flung on his back and held down by his neck and kept there until it's considered he has "submitted".  The other is a less overtly scary, just placing the dog on his back and pinning him like that, with the hands replicating the dogs mouth and paw, until he "submits", or until he lies calm and still.  (Many dogs find being held down intrinsically frightening on it its own.)

This pin was definitely more similar to the second of those definitions than the first, but still not the same.  Cleo just looked fed up of being bitten and the less physical message hadn't worked on RC.  So she warned her with her eyes and lips first, and then when RC still didn't listen, Cleo plonked a paw on her to prevent herself being bitten anymore.  RC was more on her side than her back, she wasn't being pinned around the neck area and the pin round her back end didn't seem very firm.  It looks haphazard to me - almost more like an soft embrace than a pin - like if RC really wiggled, she would come free.  Is that what happened, or was she released?  If Cleo REALLY wanted to hold her down, she could, being so much bigger and heavier, she didn't seem very serious about it.  Does Cleo nip her at this point?  Or give her a wash?  RC doesn't seem to be "calm" or "submitting" before she is released (or manages to wriggle free).  She is still wriggling and yapping just moments beforehand.

It would also be interesting to know whether RC has repeated any similar behaviour since the episode.  That would tell me whether this manouvure (sp?) is valuable as a punishment (ie, to rehab the dog so that the behaviour is not repeated) or whether it is only any use as a temporary measure, to stop a puppy from sinking their teeth into you in that moment. 

In any case, this part of the video is complex and hard to replicate.  We can't even agree here on what we are seeing.  The facial expressions that precede it are hugely important, I think, and not easy for most people to replicate.  Yet I feel they are intrinsic to the whole. 

The rest is so haphazard as to be winged on the spot, and rather than being held down with her mouth, most of the pinning is happening with (fairly relaxed) paws, while the mouth is busy doing other things (licking?).  Would we WANT to replicate that I wonder - hold a dog down with both hands and lick them all over?  I'll be honest, it sort of reminded me of Will and DH playing, when Will goes a smidge too far and DH says "Oi!  you little...." [cross] (the eyes and lips) and then "aw come 'ere you little rascal" [tickling follows] (the "pin" and the licking).

The main difference tho, is that the "alpha roll" I have heard described (both definitions) tend to be performed on older dogs, not puppies that are merely weeks old.  Is the move even appropriate beyond a certain age?  Would Cleo do this to an adult dog - has she ever done it with the adult beagles in the house?  This part is crucial IMO.

 Great post, Chuffy!

I agree. Kivi walks away with things when he wants Erik to leave him alone. He's so passive and I love watching how far he can get just by walking away. There's a dog at the dog park that likes to jump all over him and bite his face. He will tolerantly play with her for a little while, but when he gets sick of her biting he shakes her off and walks away. It's not a punishment, just avoidance. When Kivi does this to Erik, Erik sometimes gives up and sometimes doesn't. If Kivi REALLY doesn't want to play with Erik, he doesn't. He just keeps getting up and moving and over time Erik has learnt that after a few tries his time is better spent trying to get me to play with him. I still don't think this is punishing to Erik. He just bets somewhere with a better likelihood of paying up.

Kivi also does the paw squoosh, and in extreme moments, it becomes the chest squoosh. Erik does not like being pinned down, but Kivi doesn't hold him so firmly that he can't wriggle out, which he does. I've always thought of it as Kivi just protecting himself from crazy puppy teeth. He has had to do it less and less as time passes, but I am being bitten less and less by Erik as well, and I haven't punished Erik for biting. Erik is, I think, just maturing and growing out of biting fests. Kivi will also groom Erik when he has him 'pinned', and it is very much like "Ow! You little brat! Aww, come here you naughty munchkin. I think you need to settle down some." If it works, I'm not convinced it works because it is a punishment. I would venture to say it works because dogs are a social species and a puppy naturally calms with calming contact, such as strokes, licks, and grooming nibbles.

Does Kivi squoosh older dogs? Yes. During play. They can always get away if they want and usually they just let him lie on them and play bitey-face. It's definitely something more readily accepted by young dogs that are still a little puppyish, and dogs that know Kivi very well. He wouldn't try it with an older dog he'd just met.