video-Interesting video of puppy disciplining

rwbeagles

It's at the very end...

You mean the alpha rolling to the puppy? 

hey, I just observe and report...you all, can discuss LOL.

espencer

rwbeagles

It's at the very end...

 

You mean the alpha rolling to the puppy? 

I wouldn't call that alpha rolling. 

My thoughts are what a great example of a balanced Leonberger and/or any adult dog...nothing to prove.  Great shots of the pups, great shots of the Leonberger.  Glad I watched the video.  Thanks.

That's more or less what Kivi does to Erik when Erik goes bananas biting him. Accompanied by little whiney noises and mouthing or nibbling. Like Cleo, he's incredibly restrained about it.  I've never really thought of it as an alpha roll, but definitely a puppy pin. We've had some pretty long and intense disucssions about puppy pins.

When all is said and done, I don't think it really matters what dogs do to each other, seeing as we ain't dogs. But I do love to see the careful restraint a large adult dog is capable of around a small fiesty puppy.  

That RC has been trying out her skills of command. If it's anything like Erik's approach, it goes "I'm RC! Obeyz me!" 

LOL!!  Great video Gina!  You could just see Cleo's frustration growing, then almost resignation and then....well, you pushed a bit too far kiddo!  But, she also corrected without anger it seemed and quite gently.   I would guess that a lot of that is because she see's her self as their very special auntie since she was so involved in their rearing.

espencer

rwbeagles

It's at the very end...

 

You mean the alpha rolling to the puppy? 

Talk about seeing what you want to see, lol.   All I saw was a very good, but huge, "auntie dog" placing a paw on a very small pup, and being quite tolerant of the puppy's antics - in general, adult dogs do not really pay much mind to puppy antics until the pup reaches 5-6 months of age, and even then, the action is *NOT* an "alpha roll."  She was telling the pup that she didn't want to be bitten, but was not alpha rolling, frightening, or hurting the pup - to the contrary, Cleo gave her a signal with her own mouth that she (Cleo) was trustworthy, but wanted the pup to be trustworthy back;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw3q3FIv4SU

From Science Daily: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

From the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878%2808%2900115-9

This man has studied wolves for 40+ years and does not ascribe to the alpha wolf theory other than as relates to breeding: http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_dominance_alpha_status.htm

Dogs certainly retain much of the body language of the wolf, but wolves don't alpha roll, and neither do dogs.  Unless, of course, I missed something and Cleo actually grabbed that puppy and flung her onto her back.  Bad Cleo...

Edited to add: The more I see of Cleo, the more I wouldn't mind stuffing a Leo in between these Aussies:-)))

spiritdogs

Talk about seeing what you want to see.....the action is *NOT* an "alpha roll.".......

My same feelings from when we talk about "kicks", "jabs", "hangs" etc. Seeing what you want (or not want) to see. Nothing like watching dogs doing it themselves to try to justify what people are so against to. I love it!!!!

spiritdogs

She was telling the pup that she didn't want to be bitten, but was not..... frightening, or hurting the pup

That's exactly an alpha roll and the point of doing it

espencer

spiritdogs

Talk about seeing what you want to see.....the action is *NOT* an "alpha roll.".......

My same feelings from when we talk about "kicks", "jabs", "hangs" etc. Seeing what you want (or not want) to see. Nothing like watching dogs doing it themselves to try to justify what people are so against to. I love it!!!!

The alpha roll by definition - according to the people who use it - is completely different to what is in that video. 

That's exactly an alpha roll and the point of doing it

IMO it's not "exactly an alpha roll". An alpha roll is pinning another dog down  to the ground by it's throat and looking it in the eye until it submits completely. Not what we saw in that video by any stretch of the imagination. The fact still remains that no true alpha needs to physically pin another dog to the ground to assert themselves, because a true alpha already has the respect and trust of the pack and therefore pack members naturally submit to them - at the most, with nothing more than alpha pressure (the slightest of body language). The idea that we as humans need to use the alpha roll as a way of disciplining or correcting our dogs is at best outdated and dangerous.

moving on to another aspect of the video. What do you make of the keep away game? I worried at first that Cleo was stressed about having to share her pumpkin, BUT her body language was so loose and she kept almost baiting them with it.

Hunting training?

Good fun?

Deliberate baiting?

 Gina, Kivi plays that keep away game with Erik as well. He is very much like Cleo in temperament!

Sometimes I think he's just trying to have a chew on something in peace and I'll distract Erik and then Kivi will stand around with it and when I let Erik get back to him he seems quite happy about it. I've come to recognise when he truly wants to be left alone and when he's not that fussed. When he really wants to be left alone he keeps getting up and trotting to somewhere else. As soon as Erik comes near he jumps up and trots to somewhere new. When he doesn't mind he will let Erik reach him and have a go at pulling whatever the object is out of his mouth. One of their favourite games is to try to wrestle things out of each other's mouths. Erik learnt very quickly when the game is on and when it's not without any aggression from Kivi. These days he certainly doesn't stay away if Kivi wants to be left in peace, though. He thinks he can take whatever he wants whenever he wants! 

I have video somewhere that looks much more like an alpha roll, but I still wouldn't call it one. Kivi rolls Erik when they are playing. Erik will start running and if Kivi is very excited he'll come up behind and knock him over. There's nothing at all of dominance in it. Just an excited herder stopping that moving object. 

 Like this:

Even in this shot in the heat of the moment you can see Kivi's soft mouth and relatively relaxed facial expression.

 Hahahaha! The baiting is ADORABLE! Bean will do that with a toy, bone, or special treat. She does it to people, too. I see it as parading.

"I haz a bone! WOOOOOOO!" (no, really, she says woooo)

ETA: I would caption  the correction as "You fitz in my mouf, minion" LOL They are really very cute to see.

I watch dogs interact socially all of the time and give a lot of credit to folks like Cesar Millan, Suzanne Clothier, Stanley Coren, and Bruce Fogle who also gain much of their knowledge from first hand observations.

But the dogs will always teach you more about their social interactions (if you have an open mind) than humans alone ever will.