Appreciating Breed Differences

Liesje

So true, Anne.  A GSD is supposed to be aloof and indifferent towards strangers (that does not mean fearful or aggressive) and they generally aren't super outgoing or accepting of other dogs not in their "pack", but I hear so many stories about people taking their GSDs to the dog park and wondering why their dog either is glued to their side, wants nothing to do with anyone, or is snarky at the other dogs and people.  I was once asked to elaborate what I meant when I said Nikon is not a dog park kind of dog, by someone who's dog is known for bullying other dogs b/c the owners continually try to make it into this super friendly dog and it's just not.

One reason that people do this, I suspect, is that they meet or see the exceptions to the rule, and like them.  I have a four year old GSD in my play groups who is absolutely a wonderful player (she's been doing it since she was 8 weeks old on a more or less continuous basis).  I also have an almost five year old Akita still playing.  But, he's the only Akita I still have in play groups as an adult dog after 7 years of doing these supervised groups!  Most of the others got tired of playing as they exited puppy hood, and to a dog they were gone from play group by birthday number two.  The GSD's we've seen, for the most part, are usually limited from the group because they tend to get predatory, snarky, disinterested, or grabby about toys (we do take balls off the floor once in a while even for our "good" GSD), with the exception of some of the dogs that play early, often, and on an ongoing basis.  If you only selected a dog based on these two wonderful, but "broken," dogs, you'd be probably be disappointed to find that your dog responds more in line with the breed predispositions than they do.  But, I run out of fingers and toes counting the number of times that someone had a really wonderful (name the breed) when they were a kid, and are now trying to cope with the "replacement" who is anything but...

spiritdogs

Liesje

So true, Anne.  A GSD is supposed to be aloof and indifferent towards strangers (that does not mean fearful or aggressive) and they generally aren't super outgoing or accepting of other dogs not in their "pack",

 

  If you only selected a dog based on these two wonderful, but "broken," dogs, you'd be probably be disappointed to find that your dog responds more in line with the breed predispositions than they do.  But, I run out of fingers and toes counting the number of times that someone had a really wonderful (name the breed) when they were a kid, and are now trying to cope with the "replacement" who is anything but...

I will answer to these. I now have Kord, who got extra helpings of the aloof and indifferent/protective gene. I use to have Babe the dog who in most cases, never met a stranger. With Babe someone could have broken into the house, she would have made them dinner, showed them were all the valuables were and handed them a key to the front door for their next visit with an open invitation to come back anytime. Now I have Kord, who, even if he knows you and loves you, gives you snarky nasty warnings if you knock on the front door. Babe would play and acknowledge everyone, Kord will ignore you, even if you have a frisbee.  While both of these are in the standard, they expressed them in different ways. For what it's worth I am more comfortable dealing with Kords open snarkiness, Babe was sneaky, he warns up front and loudly, she would sneak up on a person and let them have it when she was breathing on the seat of your pants, he does not hide his traits.

I have never compared them against each other in terms of personality or sex. It would not be fair, they are different dogs, differently bred lines, I was younger with her, older with him.  I have had to relearn many things with Kord. My most important lesson was socialization. They both got the same amount, the same exposure to the same extent with the exception of very little children growing up, Babe had my niece from puppy and up, Kord had smatterings of exposure to my neighbors grandkids. With that said, I did not realize, to my shame, that Kord needed more. Because of this I find myself with a dog that is very snarky with people. He will never ever be people proof, and that makes me sad for him, we can manage it and I except the responsibility, but it does not make it easier to swallow. I have never ever blamed this on the "breed standard" or explained it away with "thats how they are". He is not a fearful dog, but he is protective, or guardy. There are to many people already predisposed to think of shepherds and "mean man eating" dogs than I am comfortable with. On the other hand their is the group of people who think that all shepherds "are the best dog ever and love kids" it is this type that I must be the most diligent against. I wish I could find the decider's of such observations and smack them up the side of the head, like people all dogs are different.

I do and have compared them on breed specific traits and have channeled accordingly. Kord surpasses Babe in OB. He is quicker to respond and will take direction from a child. Babe never would have done that. Now on the other hand Babe had an off switch, I am still looking for Kords. I have used their prey drive to my advantage. With herding Babe was the perfect candidate for watching and playing with the kids, for Kord it's coming up with funky new games to play and learn.

 They are the same breed but different dogs. People who look for "the best dog ever" from their youth or love of a certain dog, are, for lack of a better word, crazy. You doom your dog and yourself expecting that. For the next dog will never ever be good enough. And that is not fair to the dog.

Now...

We have and are still learning how to redirect Kords people problems. I will be honest and say that he is probably the dog we need now, where as she was the dog we needed then. When we moved here we did not know a soul, she was the perfect ambassador to help us make friends. Now, 7 years later the neighborhood is not what it was, the climate and economy has taken it's toll. More cars and houses are getting broken into daily. shootings, car jackings and the such and there are more strangers than friends, the air is sometimes very heavy with the smell of desperation and mis-content. 

What it all boils down to is accepting the part of their nature or breeding or traits, whatever you label it, not explaining it away, or ignoring it, but embracing it. I would love to have Kord a bit more accepting and Babe a bit more standoffish, I would be lying to say differently. But what I can say is I love them and that is all that matters.

For what it's worth, with Babe there was more corrective training, for Kord it has become more reward based.

spiritdogs

Pulling on the leash is not a breed trait.

Actually it is, or rather it is a trait of ALL breeds.  Dogs are not born with leashes on, but they are born wanting to walk where they want;-)

I agree - which is why I said, pulling on the leash is something any dog can do. No dog is born knowing how to walk on the leash.

But, whether you like it or not, training is often harder for dogs bred to pull sleds, dogs bred to cart, and dogs bred to be insensitive to pain, or for independent hunting or tracking.

That's not been my experience - teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash is a pretty basic exercise and if you start from when a dog is a pup it's even easier. Even with my own dog - I spent a couple of years letting my Siberian pull on the leash because I was a novice owner and I didn't know how to teach him otherwise, as soon as I spent some time with a reputable behaviourist we had him walking on a loose leash in one session. I kept up the training, and he has great leash manners now.

And, most Huskies will pull if they are left to their own devices.  You are correct that to reverse that tendency IS a training issue. 

I'm yet to meet many dogs that won't pull on the leash if left to their own devices.

 

But, if you are someone who is insistent on a great heel, why would you prefer Huskies over German Shepherds or Goldens?  The agility JRT's are wonderful in that they were able to title, but it would have been easier to do it with a Border Collie.  If you want to hunt ducks, do you go get a Havanese, or would a Lab be more practical?

To me walking on a loose leash and having a great heel are two different exercises. My husky does ok heel work, too, for a dog who only started obedience training later in his life and considering that I only train him for fun, not competition. That was really easy to teach - he's very prey and food motivated.

Anyway - Huskies are not hard to teach to walk on a loose leash. I don't know what more to say than if you get the training right it's relatively easy to do. Even easier if you start off on the right foot when the dog is a pup. There are many other breed traits I could mention that would make a Siberian a less popular obedience dog, but pulling on the leash is not one of them.

I see many GSDs, Goldies and Labs pulling on the leash. In all cases it's because the handler doesn't know how to train them not to, exactly the same reason why huskies pull on the leash.

I know many Siberian owners who both show their dogs and sled with them, these dogs know the difference as soon as the show chain goes on that they are not to pull because they are going in the show ring. They know as soon as the harness goes on that they are going to work.

That rhetorical question is the puzzlement for trainers, who wish that people would assess their life style, what the want the dog to do, and their level of commitment and skill, before choosing a breed, rather than after.  It's the constant trying to fit a square peg into a round hole that makes for neurotic dogs and dissatisfied owners.  Of course, I am more speaking about the general dog owning public, and not those of us who appreciate a training challenge for one reason or another.  I think you have to admit that there are quite a few dogs sitting in shelters solely because the qualities of their breed didn't match the expectations of their owners, who may not have had the skill, or even the desire, to mold them

I totally agree, in fact owners choosing the wrong dog for them would be IMO one of the main reasons there are so many dogs in the shelters world wide. What I don't agree with is your assertion it's harder to train a Sibe to walk on a loose leash than many other breeds.

 I seem to have two dogs that don't naturally pull on the leash. I'm actually worried Erik is not learning loose leash walking because he so rarely pulls. I keep thinking, sooner or later he's going to want to be away from us for some reason and then what will we do? It has occurred to me that I ought to teach him "hang about" now while it's easy, then I'll know what to do if he ever decides to start pulling. Penny also did not naturally pull on leash. Nor does my mother's Vallhund. Some dogs just like to hang out with you and don't like pressure on them anywhere very much.

I appreciate that your husky was relatively easy to train to walk on leash in the end, but my impression of Micha has been that he's a bit on the "broken" side as well. Correct me if I have misinterpreted. I like to say it's easy to teach a dog to LLW as well, and usually people say "Oh, but you would say that because you've never had a dog that has learnt it somewhere else and pulls as an adult" and so on. And it's true. IME so far it has been very easy, but it's not that way for everyone, as you would know. Quite frankly, whenever people see Kivi and love him for his calm nature, I always point out that he seems to be at the mellow end of the spectrum in temperament and I haven't actually met many Lappies that would rival his mellowness. What was easy with him isn't going to be easy with every other Lappie.

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spiritdogs

I thought it might be fun to post about experiences that we have all had with our breed and how we dealt with it, or not;-)

I have been bought up around working sheep dogs, GSDs, and my own choices Labs and Poodles.

I guess that the first two don't really get me going a whole lot, they just don't suit me or my lifestyle. After seeing the work load that working sheep dogs can and like to do, the idea of having them in town fills me with horror. (working sheep dog is a bit like a short coated BC in my experience) My preference for guarding breeds is the Malinois. Just personal preference.

The “type” of Lab that I like are the ones that love “working”. I really try to put people off getting my favourite breed. I ask how much exercise they do now, not how much exercise they think they will do when they get their dog. I ask whether they like training their dogs, as it just isn't optional. I am often surprised when people will walk multiple miles, pulled from pillar to post,but just won't exercise their dogs brain. For Labs going into adolescence, I often used a “boot camp “course, which is full of fun fast exercises, dummy retrieves, and then a track. This course would use up a lot more energy than any walk.

I ask how they think they will train their dogs, how they will cope with the dog's high pain threshold. What will they do when the dog knocks over something precious, may be a child. In fact I think this breed is not a good choice to bring into a family with very young children. I also ask how they will meet their dogs social needs and discuss the potential cruelty of keeping the dog in a backyard without a lot of social contact during winter.

I find that teaching LLW to Labs is pretty easy with the help of two or three relatively benign aids on the market. They do have a reputation for being “pullers”, and I guess if you label them as that then you have a reason to do nothing about it. But they are not a breed that you can give a whole lot of leeway too. Personally though, for my own dogs, I have preferred using a flat collar or martingale. Teaching LLW is essential for the mental health of the dog and the owners.

Trish McConnell says a great thing about Labs . She says they are the dogs with “Razor Sharp Minds hidden behind goofy looks”. They are my preferred choice for novice handlers who want to do activities with their dogs.

Poodles, well in all honesty poodles were a forced choice. There was the strong desire from my Wife that the next dog didn't shed, and fit into our quite small house. At first we were going to get a Standard, but literally couldn't get the house to fit. So in all honesty, I with quite bad grace picked up this little mini poodle pup who had a reputation as a “screamer” and was very pushy, and took her home. There was something about the self assurance that she settled into the crate with, the way she cuddled into me that meant that she had me twisted around her paw from day zero.

The very first thing to note is that Poodles are a Northern European hunting dog breed and really don't need a coat more than any other breed does if wisely trimmed.

If they are bred true to type and come from show parents, they will be a bit OTT, but be quite patient to humans. It should come as no suprise that dogs bred like this at smaller sizes may be a little less than concillatory to other dogs. In Aussie terms we would say that they take no ****.

They are meant to be intelligent, and often demonstrate this quirk in unexpected ways. Sometimes you need to go a layer deeper to understand what on earth a training failure is on about. They are very pack orientated and IMHO are quite socially adroit (for dogs) around humans. This is a dual edged sword. They could certainly be happy with Grandma looking after her house, and helping her organise their culinary and comfort requirements, or be out with someone very active doing tracking, agility and obedience and other such things.

I think that the hardest cross to bear and the biggest “if only” is “if only” we didn't show them in such outrageous coats so that lay people have no idea of their origin or function or ability. I think I was gazumped by this with my own dog, not wishing to believe that she was a very good tracking dog in her own right (my old Lab was a tracking freak) until I was in the middle of her TDX track. It went through all kinds of problems, none the least being a corner under a tree which had been used by a flock of sheep overnight, and stunk of their manure. She blitzed it, but the smell nearly k'oed me.!!!

This weekend I trialled her twice in UD in one day , for two if onlys :)) and she came out of the ring both times looking for more to do., ready to engage and play with the other much more exhausted entrants. The weather was very windy and often rained and was cold..

This is hard for me to explain.  But, I love her breeds tendencies.  I just don't love that sometimes it's hard to get across to her that she shouldn't be using that trait at that moment with that person.  Her instincts seem to override her training. 

I appreciate that your husky was relatively easy to train to walk on leash in the end, but my impression of Micha has been that he's a bit on the "broken" side as well. Correct me if I have misinterpreted.

Mish is a pretty easy going dog, but he's still a fairly typical Siberian - just like how Kivi is a particularly laid back lappie.

I like to say it's easy to teach a dog to LLW as well, and usually people say "Oh, but you would say that because you've never had a dog that has learnt it somewhere else and pulls as an adult" and so on. And it's true. IME so far it has been very easy, but it's not that way for everyone, as you would know. Quite frankly, whenever people see Kivi and love him for his calm nature, I always point out that he seems to be at the mellow end of the spectrum in temperament and I haven't actually met many Lappies that would rival his mellowness. What was easy with him isn't going to be easy with every other Lappie.

I don't mean to infer that Siberians are easy to train, or that LLW is easy to teach for the average owner. There are far too many dogs you see pulling on the leash (of shapes, sizes, breeds etc) to infer it's easy for everyone to teach LLW. But - for someone who knows what they are doing, like the trainer who taught me, getting a dog to walk on a loose leash is easy. It was easy for me once I was shown how to do it.

Certainly, teaching LLW to an adult dog who has become a habitual puller can be harder than teaching a puppy from scratch but that's not breed specific, any dog who has learnt that pulling gives them success and gets them where they want to go can develop into a habitual, serious puller.

What I am responding to is the idea that Siberians are near impossible to teach LLW to, and that pulling on the leash is some inherent breed trait which means teaching LLW is very hard to do. IMO Siberians are no harder to train to walk on a loose leash than many other breeds, GSDs, labs etc.

spiritdogs

I thought it might be fun to post about experiences that we have all had with our breed and how we dealt with it, or not;-)

Well, Apollo is all Lab. He LOVES the water and he LOVES to retrieve almost anything (except bumpers, go figure). He's high energy, easy to train but can be a bit stubborn. I love everything about him and Labs in general. Labradors are going to be a breed a I will always own. Labs and I are just a really good match. I've looked into other breeds and the only ones that truely honestly fit my personality (high energy, active, always on the go) and lifestyle (always on the water or in the woods) are Labs and Goldens (but I don't like the long fur, if they had shorter fur I'd own them too).

I can tell you so many stories of Apollo's Labby traits coming out at bad times, lol....

My brother and his friends often are out front of the house playing street hockey. Everytime they shoot the ball Apollo quivers and whines because he wants to go get the ball and bring it back to me, which we do let him do a few times for fun. He's so intense focusing on that ball though.

The first summer I got him he crashed our neighbors pool. We had him off leash because he's usually super velcro to me. Well, this one day he went next door (not across the street), jumped their little fence (maybe 4ft high) and belly flopped in their pool. Good thing they weren't home! LOL! He wanted to go in that pool from the day he realized they had one (heard them splashing around).

I don't ever punish him for his water retriever instincts.

Patty & Molson have been very different and I will never own a Cocker after them. I love them to death, but I didn't pick them out (re-homed to me by a family member). They're very birdy dogs. They also like to chase squirrels. They get so into tracking birds and squirrels they just don't listen as well as Apollo (who has zero interest in tracking smells). When we go to a park where it's very safe I let Molson off, but I still don't let Patty off because she has zero recall when it comes to tracking a bird or small animal. When we're at the park her bums in the air, tail looks like a little flag, and nose is on the ground- she's zoned in on smelling. And I let her because it's what Cockers do! They're supposed to be hunting dogs!

Anyway - Huskies are not hard to teach to walk on a loose leash. I don't know what more to say than if you get the training right it's relatively easy to do. Even easier if you start off on the right foot when the dog is a pup. There are many other breed traits I could mention that would make a Siberian a less popular obedience dog, but pulling on the leash is not one of them.

Maybe it's easy for you and me to train a Husky to walk nicely on lead, but the general public does not have the same luck, I can assure you (well, unless they really do go home from class and do their homework lol).   And, most of them wait far too long to start, so they end up in the uphill battle with a dog that has pulling tendencies.  We are talking about breed propensities, not breed propensities modified by good training.  Without training, any dog may pull on its lead, but I stand by my assertion that some breeds take to pulling more than others when they are in uneducated hands.  You can't take the pull out of a dog bred for that any more than you can take the desire to herd out of a Border Collie, left to its own devices.  What makes things difficult for the general public is that they might not have wanted that characteristic, or to have to modify it all that much - they want Lassie, not a project dog.  Yes, that's a failure of ordinary people to realize that you have to train ANY dog, but I think that mismatches between breeds and owners are a problem that could be avoided with better education before they choose their dogs.  I don't think Aussies are the breed for everyone, despite the fact that I love them.  And, I'm hopeful that you don't think Huskies are the breed for everyone despite the fact that you love them.  We have to realize that not all our dogs end up in the hands of people who know what to do, and the dogs suffer a lot for just exhibiting breed tendencies that might make them attractive to people who appreciate those tendencies. If we aren't honest about that, we do the dogs a disservice.  I also know that you can overcome a lot with training and behavior modification, but the genetic makeup of a dog also contributes to the final product, and it is not an "excuse" to realize that and accept that it is one factor in the dog's development and outcome.

spiritdogs

I thought it might be fun to post about experiences that we have all had with our breed and how we dealt with it, or not;-)

Probably the biggest adjustment I had to make switch to Hounds from Akitas...was that they have NO dignity LOL...and they are very soft overall, tho that is overlayed with a veneer of stubbornosity. No act of fawning or submission is beneath them LOL.

They cannot and will not take the type of training an Akita will or indeed requires. They have no boundaries with regards to their personal space like Akitas do...and this extends to YOUR personal space and that of other dogs. Not being prepared for all that led to some bad decisions on my part with training and expanding my knowledge base as well on different things and softened my touch as an owner in what I feel is a positive way.

Leonbergers are velcro dogs that are huge...extremely sensitive to moods and voice in a way even hounds, are not. Strife within a family actually physically wears on them...something new to be aware of. They are not stubborn in the way hounds are and pick up things remarkably quickly...tho they are NOT overly food motivated they ARE praise motivated. They are easy dogs to train but not always easy to live with.