Walking problem...also pack leader problem?

I know for me, be a tree only works with limited success. However, there is a caveat and that is that I work with terriers in my home, and their personality and type of drive doesn't lend well to be a tree that much. They are not patient by nature, are quite impulsive, and pulling on its own doesn't seem something that bothers terriers. I've had ones that even learned to pull in head halters - they aren't considered tenacious for nothin'. I do use it, sometimes, and I know it works well for other types of dogs, but for me it has had limited success.

I have used a combination of changing direction, rewarding for position, and Penalty Yards. You can read about them here:
http://www.lakenormandogtraining.com/Loose%20Leash%20Walking.htm
http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/LLW.pdf 

And of course, when the dogs still need to be exercised, I use plain ole management. Head halters, or no-pull harnesses, or a long line (I've never really had a dog "pull" on a long line as once they reach the end they tend to change direction and go another way....but it happens by times).

I have found teaching LLW is often the easiest to do after exercise. If you can run the dog on a treadmill, or safely off-leash run the dog, or train for LLW after a walk (using management), you're going to get results quicker than if you are taking your dog out first thing in the morning, or first thing after work, when the dog is not raring to go, the dog will be more able to focus on you. When I need to "exercise" the dogs, I treat it as a totally different entity than teaching LLW. They occur at two different times in the beginning for me.

You can also do some LLW in the house to
a) teach relevance to you
b) teach the leash isnt' that exciting and may be put on at any time. Often the only time a dog sees a leash is when it's going for a walk or drive, so it automatically creates an adrenaline dump and puts the dog's learning at a disadvantage.
c) gives you lots of opportunity to reinforce the dog for being next to you.
That is, just clip on the leash and go about some of your household chores. Reinforce when the dog walks next to you where you want it to be walking. It helps make you more relevant to your dog, and it is a very easy exercise that helps you to build your relationship together!!

You've gotten lots of good ideas, the key is to try to see what works for you! Remember, the goal is to make learning as fun as possible, and you won't get that by constant corrections. You want the dog to respect you, and it doesn't happen with intimidation or fear. It happens with understanding the dog is just being a dog, and it's your job to help the dog walk at a snail's (human's) pace!! You want the dog to enjoy its walk - after all, the dog is probably the biggest reason you're walking in the first place.

 One thing you can do, until you get the dogs trained, is to NOT use equipment that Huskies love to pull in.  So, avoid flat collars, or harnesses that hook up on the dog's back.  You can try an Easy Walk Harness or a Halti Head Collar (hard pullers seem to like those better than the Gentle Leaders, but you still have to acclimate the dog to the halter before using it).  I like to train a hard puller off leash, so I take the dog to a fenced in area, with a clicker and some treats.  I use a high pitched "Let's Go!" or slap my thigh while I say the dog's name, and when he gets anywhere close to my left leg I click and treat.  Repeating this many times will get you a dog that realizes that the best place on earth to be is right by his owner's side -  because that is where all the good things happen.  If the dog gets to me more than about 8-10 times during the first 60 seconds of training, I call it a success and build on it day by day.  The object is to teach the dog the "cue" for loose leash walking before you ever put a leash on.  Once you do use a leash, you must be prepared NOT to correct the dog with it, or keep pulling back on it.  Instead, if the dog pulls, lower your hand below your waist and abruptly change direction - when the dog catches up to you - click and treat, or just say "yes" and treat.  Again, you are building the dog's desire to decide to remain at your left side.  Engaging a Husky's oppositional reflex by pulling back on him will make you unsuccessful.

I doubt that you can call this a "pack leader problem" - Huskies are bred to pull, but they are also bred to be relatively benign in the company of other dogs, and are not a breed that routinely tries to step in to any leadership void, although they do not score high on the biddable scale either, being relatively independent and happy to just trot on, unlike some of the other working breeds whose function was to work more closely on tasks requiring more highly developed problem solving abilities.  You wouldn't want a Husky to overthink getting from Nome to Fairbanks lol.  They are great at what they do, and are well suited to their original occupation, but it doesn't necessarily make for a dog that enjoys a polite leash walk - very boring to them to have the scenery going by that slowly, I imagine:-)

spiritdogs

I doubt that you can call this a "pack leader problem" - Huskies are bred to pull, but they are also bred to be relatively benign in the company of other dogs, and are not a breed that routinely tries to step in to any leadership void

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence, but many Sibe owners/breeders/clubs etc will tell you that they are a breed that are quite prepared to 'step up' and take control of a situation if given the opportunity. They are also known for their stubborness and the fact that they will often push the boundaries.

although they do not score high on the biddable scale either, being relatively independent and happy to just trot on, unlike some of the other working breeds whose function was to work more closely on tasks requiring more highly developed problem solving abilities.  You wouldn't want a Husky to overthink getting from Nome to Fairbanks lol.  They are great at what they do, and are well suited to their original occupation, but it doesn't necessarily make for a dog that enjoys a polite leash walk - very boring to them to have the scenery going by that slowly, I imagine:-)

Whilst they are not known for their bidabbility, Sibes are a highly intelligent breed. They were bred to be independent thinkers so they could assess situations and suss out if they should obey their handler or disobey if the need arose. Sibes get bored because they are so intelligent and unlike some working breeds quickly tire of repeating basic tasks. A Siberian is far more likely to look at you and ask "Why?" than many other dogs. LOL. There's a saying used by Sibe owners that goes along the lines of;

'Tell a Golden Retriever to sit and he will. Tell a Siberian to sit and he may run in a circle around you. He may woo-woo at you. He may ignore you. He may jump up, jump over the gates, retrieve the dumbbell from the next ring, jump back across the gates, and present it to you. He may actually sit. However, harness a Golden and tell him "Gee" and he will turn right. The Siberian will wait for the opening in the trees..' 

Slightly OT, but my Siberian loves going for walks and always walks nicely on a leash. We may walk at a slowish pace, but he never bores of it and always finds it exciting. I throw commands in along the way for fun, but that's more about building focus than keeping walks entertaining.

TotemandMaya

I know the first issue is, who is the pack leader?

Not really.  According to such protocol, only the alpha pair breed - so what about breeders?  Do they have a poorer relationship with their dogs because the dog thinks s/he is "leader", because they have the privelege of breeding?  What about those who use dogs for protection, "seeing eye", tracking, weight pull, or mushing... where the dog is REQUIRED to be out in front?  Does the dog see himself as leader then?

What I am saying is, all this "leader" stuff is illogical and arbitrary much of the time, and very rarely helpful.

Huskies. as with any dog, can LEARN not to pull..... most dogs will default to pulling unless taught otherwise, because it is pretty much "what they do".  Peeing on the carpet would also be "just what they do" if we did not take pains to teach them to go outside

TotemandMaya

So when it is time to go, I make them sit before I put on the leash, I make them sit and wait while I open the door, and go out, but as soon as I release them from the sitting position, they fly out the door.

 IMO you are doing GREAT, by setting off on the right foot and asking them to pay attention to you and co-operate, right from the beginning of the walk.  May I ask - what is the "sit" like?  Is it a solid sit, a CALM sit - or do they look like coiled springs? Do you also wait for eye contact, or a flick of an ear towards you - anything to show they are "with you" before releasing from the sit?

 What I would do when they fly out the door is, I would turn around abruptly and go back inside.  Walk cancelled.  Try again later.  It may take several goes to get to the end of your street, but this has worked for me... in conjunction with plenty of OFF LEAD "heel" practise in the house and garden.  This exercise teaches them that we go quite a ways when they walk NEXT to me - but it is abruptly cut short if they behave "rudely".  I also practise Learn to Earn (NILIF), and I expect a degree of calmness and a good response to a cue, for anything valuable that they want in life, like toys and games.  This helps them generalise and transfer this attitude to a walk: "If I want something, I have to hold back and I will get it.  If I barge forward, it disappears."  This goes for doors opening, meals and petting as well.  It's a nice, simple, holistic apppraoch that helps keep the dogs calm and controllable.

I don't think you are failing to be assertive.  You seem very confident and competent to me   I think you have inadvertantly taught the dogs, for instance, that a "release" = GO GO GO instead of, "now we are setting off, but you have to LISTEN and stay WITH me, and control yourself enough that we can ALL enjoy ourselves."  I think you have also inadvertantly taught your male that the break of eye contact is a kind of release as well.  It's accidental training, rather than a lack of "leadership" on your part. 

I don't think you need a trainer, but you might consider a training aid, like a head halter or anti-pull harness just to give you a bit more control and comfort during walks.

spiritdogs

Instead, if the dog pulls, lower your hand below your waist and abruptly change direction

I'm sure the amount of force required to do that is more than the amount of force used on a leash correction. Actually this "abruptly" change of direction could be considered as a correction itself

In my experience, e, no it isn't.  You don't DRAG the dog around, you basically confuse the dog into following because it's his only option.  He's steaming straight ahead, dragging you behind and all of a sudden you've changed directions.  Huh??  What's going on here??  It ALWAYS works when I pull.  Now I've gotta turn around and catch UP.

Having your hand below your waist insures that there are no major jerks, just a smooth turn, and a puller isn't yanking your shoulder out of it's socket.

I'm pretty small, and have absolutely zilch for upper body strength so I can't strong arm anyone or anything.

espencer

spiritdogs

Instead, if the dog pulls, lower your hand below your waist and abruptly change direction

 

I'm sure the amount of force required to do that is more than the amount of force used on a leash correction. Actually this "abruptly" change of direction could be considered as a correction itself

Depends how it is applied.  For a leash correction to work, there has to be slack in the lead, with a sharp tug.  Slack, SNAP, slack. A leash correction on a tight lead is pretty ineffective.

If you hold the lead below your waist in a single coil, and, when turning, drop the coil but hold the lead, then this does provide a leash correction when the dog pulls, because you PROVIDE the slack, and your momentum provides the tug, then as the dog catches up, the lead goes slack again.  Slack, snap, slack.  Plus he ALSO has to catch up with you.  I've seen it done and it works, if by "works" you mean, you have a dog who no longer pulls.  I've seen it done on people too, but with the person playing "dog" HOLDING the lead, rather than having it attached to a collar round their neck.  The manouevre looks uncomfortable, but not awfully so.  Enough to want avoid it, not enough to cause pain or injury.  BUT I do think it look uncomfortable for the dogs neck.

Now if you keep the lead at the same length (and again, below the waist) then there is no such correction, the dog is simply in a different position, and one in which it is difficult to pull.

That probably makes hardly any sense.

 Made sense to me, Chuffy!

Like Glenda, I find talking helps, just through classical conditioning. I spent months saying "this side" every time we came to an obstacle that Kivi was going to pass on the far side, and "this way" when I wanted him to turn around and follow me, and "hold up" when he was about to reach the end of his leash. It paid off because now he's always got an ear out for verbal directions, and it means I can run with him on a leash without having to worry about him stringing us up. Although, a few weeks ago he did just that when I forgot to make sure he was passing on my side of the pole and we broke the D-ring his leash was clipped to. The look on his face was, I'm pretty sure, a mirror of the look on mine as we both took a few moments to recover and sort ourselves out. Accidents are the reason why I like harnesses.

But talking is of limited use in the short term, except to set the mood. I think working with them one at a time is a great place to start. I trained quite a lovely 'come to heel' sort of thing with my dog by waiting until I had his attention, then calling him over and "feeding the position" so to speak. He's good about paying attention to me when he thinks there's food to be had. With a good reward history he often just comes over of his own accord and heels hopefully. It's very cute. Having treats on you all the time means you can really take advantage of these opportunities. 

I read some good suggestions.  Most that I was going to make.  I did not read all of them though.  You might want to get a pair of soft leather gloves for your hands.  That's what I use when I'm training a dog that is real strong or one that pulls.    I have used the backpack and it will slow them down, you can use canned food on both sides to add a little weight.  I have 2 pit bulls and my rescue male likes to pull too.  I use a tennis ball, a small squeak toy or  treats to keep Petey's attention and ask him to "watch me"  I talk to my dogs  while we walk or work and I don't train for long periods of time, they get bored real fast and won't want to work at all.  Keep it fun and up beat.  All dogs are different so you just need to try different things.  I would also recommend taking group obedience lessons, get back to the basics.  Something else that sometimes help, every time they pull and forge ahead, just stop, wait for him to stop pulling, when he does start walking again and keep doing the same thing until he gets the hang of it.  I do use the pinch collar with my female even though she is obedience trained because little dogs tend to run up trying to take her face off and she doesn't take too kindly to that and it helps me be able to hang on better.  I don't use one on Petey because of an injury to his throat/wind pipe, something before I found him.   Even though I have taught obedience for years I still take my female to classes from time to time just to socialize and mingle and every Husky I have ever met at training is being trained with a pinch collar.  Just make sure you use it right if you decide to use one.  People love the gentle leaders too.  Didn't work for Petey, but he is a problem child.  Lots of baggage!  Good luck and hang in there

 I just got my head collar in the mail, I am trying to get both of them used to it, before i take them on a walk, they hate the fact that it's on their noses. I am trying to associate it with good things. I have put it on them 3 times, and given them treats and easy commands  no free lunch...lol for the treats, while they are wearing it. they still don't like it, and scratch at their noses a lot.

I just started a dog training program, one day I will be able to give advice, like all of you!

Thank you everyone for your comments and helpful advice! I will continue posting as I progress or hit bumps in the road.

TotemandMaya

 I just got my head collar in the mail, I am trying to get both of them used to it, before i take them on a walk, they hate the fact that it's on their noses. I am trying to associate it with good things. I have put it on them 3 times, and given them treats and easy commands  no free lunch...lol for the treats, while they are wearing it. they still don't like it, and scratch at their noses a lot.

Some dogs never get used to head collars because they can be quite aversive. My Sibe HATED the head collar and my neighbour's Sibe hated it so much he clawed at his face so hard to get it off he bled. 

Personally I don't like to put a tool on my dogs that causes that kind of a reaction - if they don't adjust to wearing it, it's ok not to persist with it and find something that works for them better. People recommend head collars as a 'gentle' or 'kind' tool but they are still aversive (other wise they wouldn't work) and like any tool, are not suited to every dog.

Suzanne Clothier wrote a great article about head collars that I highly recommend reading:

http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/54/97/

TotemandMaya

o free lunch...lol for the treats, while they are wearing it.

No free lunch?!  If I were a dog, having to wear that blasted thing on my nose in return for treats would most certainly NOT class as a "free lunch".    In any case, while NILIF in every day life is helpful, in TRAINING sessions, a "free lunch" can be beneficial.... I will see if I can find the article on dolphins about it

Clothier's article is excellent!  Do read it, and if the dogs persist in hating the tool, try something else.