BC - aggressive to other dogs

 Collie means, literally, good farm dog.  A good farm dog does not, unprovoked, go after other dogs in a neutral environment.  A good farm dog can be called off of sheep, cattle, and dogs.  There is a difference between preferring not to be around other dogs and attacking them.  Picture this, you and your dog bring your flock to market in town.  The sheep are put into a pen awaiting sale.  You enter a room, possibly a pub, while you wait around.  Meanwhile, your dog is waiting outside the door, or he is laying at your feet.  When you are ready to go home the dog follows you.  Now picture the poster's student dog waiting outside the pub and attacking everybody else's collie.

Maura

Collie means, literally, good farm dog.  A good farm dog does not, unprovoked, go after other dogs in a neutral environment.  A good farm dog can be called off of sheep, cattle, and dogs.  There is a difference between preferring not to be around other dogs and attacking them.  Picture this, you and your dog bring your flock to market in town.  The sheep are put into a pen awaiting sale.  You enter a room, possibly a pub, while you wait around.  Meanwhile, your dog is waiting outside the door, or he is laying at your feet.  When you are ready to go home the dog follows you.  Now picture the poster's student dog waiting outside the pub and attacking everybody else's collie.

How is this at all helpful for the OP and the dog she is working with? It doesn't matter at this point what a breeder should have bred for - the dog exists and needs training help.

Maura

 Collie means, literally, good farm dog.  A good farm dog does not, unprovoked, go after other dogs in a neutral environment.  A good farm dog can be called off of sheep, cattle, and dogs.  There is a difference between preferring not to be around other dogs and attacking them.  Picture this, you and your dog bring your flock to market in town.  The sheep are put into a pen awaiting sale.  You enter a room, possibly a pub, while you wait around.  Meanwhile, your dog is waiting outside the door, or he is laying at your feet.  When you are ready to go home the dog follows you.  Now picture the poster's student dog waiting outside the pub and attacking everybody else's collie.

 It is also hard to say how this dog would behave if it was a working farm dog and was raised as such.

AgileGSD

Maura

 Collie means, literally, good farm dog.  A good farm dog does not, unprovoked, go after other dogs in a neutral environment.  A good farm dog can be called off of sheep, cattle, and dogs.  There is a difference between preferring not to be around other dogs and attacking them.  Picture this, you and your dog bring your flock to market in town.  The sheep are put into a pen awaiting sale.  You enter a room, possibly a pub, while you wait around.  Meanwhile, your dog is waiting outside the door, or he is laying at your feet.  When you are ready to go home the dog follows you.  Now picture the poster's student dog waiting outside the pub and attacking everybody else's collie.

 It is also hard to say how this dog would behave if it was a working farm dog and was raised as such.

 

 

I don't think you can always lay the blame on breeders.  We do not know what this dog's early socialization history is with other dogs!  Owners sometimes don't realize the importance of socializing early and often and on a continuing basis, especially with the herders or other breeds that are characteristically referred to as reserved or aloof.  So, they think that because they took a puppy class or have one other dog at home, that was all they needed, or they may have waited until the dog was completely vaccinated at 16 weeks, which is IME way too late to start with these guys.  Herding dogs, as a rule, are much less interested in play with other dogs after they reach about three years of age, but the well socialized dog will use an appropriate display to increase distance, not the kind of thing that tashakota described.  I think it's a stretch to think that the dog is genetically unsound, when that may not be the case.  I can't tell you how many clients I get with similar problems, and while it is poor breeding in some cases, the majority of the time it's just a bad match and an owner that didn't realize the importance of early training.
AgileGSD makes a good point - a BC that has a job is a much more stable dog sometimes.  Also, if there's fault attributable to the breeder, we should also consider that perhaps it's just that they are not as well versed in behavior, or in matching pups to owners, as they are in breeding practices generally.

 

tenna

 I forgot this thread existed. Huh.

Are you using the LAT game? Edit - I mean to say, how well is the LAT game working for you? It sounds like she's frequently allowed over threshold, and doesn't feel comfortable. Almost like everyone needs to take a step back to a place where the dog is obviously enjoying itself, not just behaving OK. It sounds like the dog is possibly too stressed by being too close to the stimulus, that even though she takes the reward, it doesn't really motivate her. I've worked with an Aussie that's like that - she easily gets overstimulated, and there is a point where she stops accepting treats, but even before that point when she is accepting them, it's almost a mechanical reaction and not because she wants them. I hope that makes sense.

 

Due to weather issues, we haven't worked together for a few weeks now but yes, we were using LAT.   It seemed to work really well and at a certain distance she would glance at the other dog, then look back to me for the game.  Getting too close and she would not look back as quickly so it will take some time yet.  And I understand about the mechanical reaction.  I noticed that when I decreased distance the last time that it seemed more mechanical and not as involved in the tugging.

spiritdogs

...

  The goal is not to make them be the life of the party at dog park, it's to get some self control installed, and even more importantly the focus on the handler's requests, so that they do not feel empowered to just run off to snark at other dogs.  ...

 

Right, I do not necessarily want this dog to be able to run around off-leash with other dogs, but I would like for her to focus on the training and not want to run off and chase the other dogs.

An article about this sort of behavior in herding breeds and in specific "collies" (border collies, not rough/smooth collies).

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/html/sheepdog_.html

AgileGSD

An article about this sort of behavior in herding breeds and in specific "collies" (border collies, not rough/smooth collies).

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/html/sheepdog_.html

 

Thanks so much for posting that!  I am going to post it to my own message board under the Breeds section;-)  This is a great resource for me, in trying to explain why many of my fave herding dogs are not "undersocialized" lol.

tashakota

Due to weather issues, we haven't worked together for a few weeks now but yes, we were using LAT.   It seemed to work really well and at a certain distance she would glance at the other dog, then look back to me for the game.  Getting too close and she would not look back as quickly so it will take some time yet.  And I understand about the mechanical reaction.  I noticed that when I decreased distance the last time that it seemed more mechanical and not as involved in the tugging.

 

Sucks about the weather. :( Personally, I would be backing up the distance and re-establishing everything as fun and exciting to the dog. It's possible that she's gone over threshold frequently enough in this space that she is 'on-edge' and doesn't feel comfortable. So I'd back everything up, focus for a few weeks on building a positive relationship between the dog and the handler (and a positive association with the space), and maybe do some work with the Give Me a Break game, relaxing mat work, etc., After that, I would try introducing the stimulus more slowly and at further distances. To me, it sounds possible that you are working her at a distance where she is not so stressed she is giving a huge reaction, but is close enough to be stressed out enough that it's inhibiting her learning.

It sounds like she'd get good benefits from the Give Me a Break game thrown in. She might be getting worked too long without a chance to just "be a dog" and needs a chance to mentally disengage from the training.

tenna

tashakota

Due to weather issues, we haven't worked together for a few weeks now but yes, we were using LAT.   It seemed to work really well and at a certain distance she would glance at the other dog, then look back to me for the game.  Getting too close and she would not look back as quickly so it will take some time yet.  And I understand about the mechanical reaction.  I noticed that when I decreased distance the last time that it seemed more mechanical and not as involved in the tugging.

 

Sucks about the weather. :( Personally, I would be backing up the distance and re-establishing everything as fun and exciting to the dog. It's possible that she's gone over threshold frequently enough in this space that she is 'on-edge' and doesn't feel comfortable. So I'd back everything up, focus for a few weeks on building a positive relationship between the dog and the handler (and a positive association with the space), and maybe do some work with the Give Me a Break game, relaxing mat work, etc., After that, I would try introducing the stimulus more slowly and at further distances. To me, it sounds possible that you are working her at a distance where she is not so stressed she is giving a huge reaction, but is close enough to be stressed out enough that it's inhibiting her learning.

It sounds like she'd get good benefits from the Give Me a Break game thrown in. She might be getting worked too long without a chance to just "be a dog" and needs a chance to mentally disengage from the training.

We did some of the give me a break game without other dogs around, that last time.  She did pretty good and it was hard for her owner to understand to play for a few seconds, then quit and ignore Jess, but Jess seemed to really enjoy it and even started offering behaviors to get us to play with her again.

The owner will even put her up in the car (in a crate) during classes to give her some time alone.  Jess does not participate in class as much as the other dogs do, but she gets to do a few things but mostly they work on attention and just remaining calm around other dogs.  It's a work in progress and the weather is not helping us any at this point.

tashakota

We did some of the give me a break game without other dogs around, that last time.  She did pretty good and it was hard for her owner to understand to play for a few seconds, then quit and ignore Jess, but Jess seemed to really enjoy it and even started offering behaviors to get us to play with her again.

The owner will even put her up in the car (in a crate) during classes to give her some time alone.  Jess does not participate in class as much as the other dogs do, but she gets to do a few things but mostly they work on attention and just remaining calm around other dogs.  It's a work in progress and the weather is not helping us any at this point.

So would you say is not that the dog has been incapable of making progress, but that she hasn't been worked with enough to see much of it? It sounds like she hasn't gotten consistent long-term training in these methods to see a good result...

 We were making good progress all through November but since December and the holidays, the weather has gotten colder and there is too much else going on.  We might do a session this Sat if the weather isn't too bad.

Really wish we had an indoor place to go....  :(

 My friend rents a church basement to teach in and it isn't too expensive;-)