Drives vs. Rewards; Working IN Drive vs. Training...

 Hi Huski

 

There seems to be no way that i can have a civil conversation with you on this board.  I was offering you some genuine help that took me some time to work out and it appears that it just pushes your defensive buttons. For the sake of myself and other members i am requesting that you don't respond to my posts because i sure as hell wont be wasting my time by responding anymore to any of yours.

 

 

poodleOwned

 Hi Huski

 

There seems to be no way that i can have a civil conversation with you on this board.  I was offering you some genuine help that took me some time to work out and it appears that it just pushes your defensive buttons. For the sake of myself and other members i am requesting that you don't respond to my posts because i sure as hell wont be wasting my time by responding anymore to any of yours.

No need for that reaction PO. I was seriously offended at your insinuation that I have no faith in my dog, an insinuation based on absolutely no "evidence".  I have no idea why you think my relationship with my dog is lacking or why you would feel you need to make cast aspersions on it - and you think I am misunderstanding you! Quite frankly I find your tone quite condescending.

 

ETA: I have no problem receiving advice/tips from others about my dog and our training, in fact I frequently post videos and ask for feedback on other boards. However, any "help" you've given me has been nothing but condescending and is based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever! First you tell me I have no trust or confidence in my dog and then you tell me that I need to engage her play drive... based on no example, or evidence! I'm glad you know my dog and I so well based on nothing but your own imagination!

 Okay, let's just take a deep breath...

 ..and talk about me!

So I was filming Erik before his meal this evening and I was thinking, hmm, maybe I WAS seeing things. It does look pretty identical to anticipation for chasing a toy. And then I turned off the camera and bent down to give Erik his meal and there it was! For a couple of seconds before he got his meal his face changed and I went "Oh, that's what I was talking about." Couldn't describe it if my life depended on it, though. The quest for footage continues.

 

corvus

nd then I turned off the camera and bent down to give Erik his meal and there it was! For a couple of seconds before he got his meal his face changed and I went "Oh, that's what I was talking about." Couldn't describe it if my life depended on it, though. The quest for footage continues.

Here is my theory (of the moment). I am learning so much with all of this stuff that i can confuse mysef by opening my mouth :))

When a dog chases a toy, and catches it, the expectation from the dog is that there will be more and they remain alert. Dopamines which are present during play encourage alertness and awareness

When a dog gets food, there is a difference in many breeds. They need to drop the energy and alertness level quite a bit to  consume  the food. They break off social focus.We know that the two processes of food are different, the appertitive and consumptive.

Some breeds are so food orientated that this process isn't much of a bother. For many it is. To move them into the next excercise after a reward is almost adversive.

For the second group, food isn't great shakes as a motivater, but if you reduce the size of each treat a lot, it can be.

 

I wanted to test this concept of clicker training being more stressful and you know what I think that it was!  Not stressful in the same way, but my dog was visibly stressed, I wish I'd taped it.  We've been starting retrieves.  First he learned the jumping technique so he can make it over the jump.  Then he learned heeling to the jump, waiting in a sit, and retrieving FAST over the jump for his ball or tug (which he brings right back straight into me for play).  So last night I wanted to start backchaining the formal aspect of the dog holding the dumbell and outing it.  I don't have one yet so I found a piece of PVC pipe.  A few times, I just c/t while I was holding it and he was sitting in front of me, focused.  Then I wanted him to put his mouth on it.  This is where he got confused.  He barked, he "punched" it with his paw, he gave me eye contact, he broke his front sit and offered a right finish.... every few things he tried, he would gently bite it and I would c/t.  He was panting, wanting to back up, looking around or looking away.  It was kinda cute and funny how confused he was.  He is a pretty operant dog and he was trying a lot of things just not quite what I wanted.  I ended up doing a little chase with the pipe to get him a bit interested in the pipe itself and that helped but he was still showing "stressed" behaviors.

I disagree that using treats can be aversive to drive.  Before we did this, we did some jumping.  When I put out the jump, he starts going over back and forth on his own b/c he knows that gets c/t.  I don't have to lure him or command him, he knows how to earn that treat and it's like the longer he does it, the harder he wants to work to get that treat.  He will jump until I'm too dizzy to watch him anymore and is still not satiated.  It's sort of like with tracking and having food on the track - he may be tracking for the food but he sure skips plenty of it once he gets in his rhythm!  In fact I have to use less food if I need to slow him down, not more.

Liesje

I disagree that using treats can be aversive to drive.

 

Hi

I was trying to point out  that the consumptive part of treating can be drive depressive for some breeds of dogs. It doesn't affect single shot excercises like jumps much, but can effect endurance excercises like heeling.

 That's why it's important people use proper treats.  The ones I use are soft, very yummy and smelly, and can literally be inhaled by my dog.

Liesje

I wanted to test this concept of clicker training being more stressful and you know what I think that it was!  Not stressful in the same way, but my dog was visibly stressed, I wish I'd taped it.  We've been starting retrieves.  First he learned the jumping technique so he can make it over the jump.  Then he learned heeling to the jump, waiting in a sit, and retrieving FAST over the jump for his ball or tug (which he brings right back straight into me for play).  So last night I wanted to start backchaining the formal aspect of the dog holding the dumbell and outing it.  I don't have one yet so I found a piece of PVC pipe.  A few times, I just c/t while I was holding it and he was sitting in front of me, focused.  Then I wanted him to put his mouth on it.  This is where he got confused.  He barked, he "punched" it with his paw, he gave me eye contact, he broke his front sit and offered a right finish.... every few things he tried, he would gently bite it and I would c/t.  He was panting, wanting to back up, looking around or looking away.  It was kinda cute and funny how confused he was.  He is a pretty operant dog and he was trying a lot of things just not quite what I wanted.  I ended up doing a little chase with the pipe to get him a bit interested in the pipe itself and that helped but he was still showing "stressed" behaviors.

I read this post by Ivan Balabanov the other day on his own forum - the topic is why he is not a big fan of "shaping"

Balabanov: "Let's say we will try to shape "sit". Dog sits - click- reward. This can go very easy and the dog can "get it " in only couple of tries or .... it can get overly exited which can be in conflict with the sitting behavior and ... we're for a longer wait while the dog is frustrated that he has to figure something out. Nothing wrong with that either but here is the analogy I always give: Imagine you need money real bad : ) and I offer you 5,000 in cash . Imagine we're at a gas station I have some small European car that you have never seen before. I tell you: " I will give you 1min. to find where the tank is, figure out how to open it and begin fueling. Timer goes off ... you have 1 minute and HUGE desire to get 5,000 . But you are going to the wrong side of the car and opening the hood instead of the tank cap. Unfortunately (if I am shaping) I have to watch you wasting your time) Time is ticking away you have 30 seconds left. Now you are finally moving closer to the tank and I can "click" you .... bottom line you lost because of the time factor. If it was me trying to figure out how to pump gas in the car, I personally would have loved for you to even slap me if was to go the wrong way and point to me exactly where the tank is, so I don't waste time and get the money. I would have not considered the slap a correction either since it helped me get out of the place I was stuck at. I will not be frustrated trying to figure it out, I will learn to look up to you for direction (which soon or later has to happen)"

 

Liesje

That's why it's important people use proper treats.  The ones I use are soft, very yummy and smelly, and can literally be inhaled by my dog.

This is another one of those oh ****  moments when you move from bigger dogs to little dogs. :)

What i learnt form this is to use even smaller treats and to prepare well. If i siad that the treats are easy to handle i would be lying, but it is successful.

My now dead labs kennel name was Kahilani Winning Post. we thought it should be changed to Kahilani Rubbish Truck. When it came to food , he would have been happy to inhale a treat the size of a brick.

Some dogs are better able to handle the frustration of shaping than others. If I shape something with Kivi, I do it in tiny steps and pay almost constantly. Kivi gets frustrated very easily and if he gets frustrated he is liable to lie down on my foot and refuse to move. I decided in the end to teach him targeting, and he loves it. It takes all the stress out of clicker training for him. We are currently just nose targeting, but once he's a little more solid on it I want to teach him to target with his paws and hips. I do not think it's fair to shape Kivi unless I can make it very easy and rewarding for him.

Erik, on the other hand, is completely different. It's much easier to keep his reward rate high during shaping as he's fast in body and mind, and just about shapes himself. He's always trying another variation to see what happens. Kivi is always waiting for me to tell him what he should do. Kivi isn't a very creative dog. He needs a lot of help. Erik throws things in all the time. Ask him to sit? Well, today he's decided he's going to spin into a sit. A down? What about a backwards army crawl that he just made up just now?

I don't think dogs that are prone to frustration should not be shaped, but I think they should be shaped with a good deal of care and a lot of help.