Spinoff: Is Dominance Really So Bad?

Liesje

It might be something that needs to be developed.  Even for the crazy, drivey GSDs they don't always come out of the box this way.  Huski was talking about building the food drive so I assume he/she has done the same.  Nikon ignored balls for the first 5 months of his life.  The ball drive is something that *I* created so that I had an absolute motivator/reward ALL of the time (it's also my "emergency recall). 

This is a good point. If I had the same desires and goals when Gaci was a puppy, as I do now, I would have raised her in a totally different way. Obviously part of her drives come from her history in what I used as a puppy, plus her natural interests. There are a lot of things I'd do differently if I was raising a drivey, active animal from the beginning now as compared to five and a half years ago. I also had the pitfalls of having to sidetrack some of the "fun" stuff to work on her serious behaviour issues - that in itself could be a part of what altered some things as well. If I were to choose my next "ideal" dog - it would have a lot of elements that she has, but I wouldn't select the exact dog again. And i say that with utmost love and respect for Gaci......she's my heart dog (and I've lived with a lot of dogs), and I'm so partial to her, but I wouldn't "choose" her if she came out of another litter in the future.

It's not as easy to build that kind of focus with "terrier" terriers....I say that in quotations because you can get terriers with limited drive as well. I have one...LOL. Just because it's a terrier doesn't mean it's drivey in the least. But when you do get a drivey terrier, it's a bit different than a drivey Border Collie or a drivey GSD - because the focus and motivations are often at the opposite ends of the spectrum.  Once again it comes down to heritage and what the underlying motivations are. There's a reason certain breeds do what they do - they are bred for certain tasks. It's why you don't see too many Mini Schnauzers in herding (I've seen one...and it utilized prey drive and herded really strange compared to herding dogs) or German Shepherds doing bird-hunting work.

I'm not using that as any sort of excuse though....when I'm doing agility and our agility training group is working together, I do expect to see the same results as the Kelpie or the Border Collie....I have high expectations of my girls.....but you have to acknowledge the differences and work with them in slightly different manners sometimes, and sometimes that same level of experience takes slightly longer than it may with a more handler-driven breed.

Regardless....I would have done things differently if I had have raised Gaci to be a sports dog...I didn't have those goals, or interests, when she was a pup, so her puppyhood was a lot different than I would do now. And I do believe how a pup is raised is a big factor of how it will turn out for sports and competition as an adult.

huski

I'm not sure how you usually use tugs, but personally with prey driven dogs I make it more about the chase than the capture - does she enjoy chasing the tug?

I agree.  I wanted to make a vid of this but I can't do it indoors.  Nikon slips on the carpet (he's already limping) and often crashes into everything.  Maybe tomorrow if it's not raining.

I did just try a short vid of him and his ball (or rather, 2 seconds of him working for it and several minutes of me trying to get it back!!).

Kim_MacMillan

It's not as easy to build that kind of focus with "terrier" terriers....I say that in quotations because you can get terriers with limited drive as well. I have one...LOL. Just because it's a terrier doesn't mean it's drivey in the least. But when you do get a drivey terrier, it's a bit different than a drivey Border Collie or a drivey GSD - because the focus and motivations are often at the opposite ends of the spectrum.  Once again it comes down to heritage and what the underlying motivations are. There's a reason certain breeds do what they do - they are bred for certain tasks. It's why you don't see too many Mini Schnauzers in herding (I've seen one...and it utilized prey drive and herded really strange compared to herding dogs) or German Shepherds doing bird-hunting work.

Not unlike a drivey Beagle ;) My beag goes into drive really easily when it involves scenting, we step out of the house and she's got her nose to the ground scenting madly and 110% focused on the smell she's following.

But if you can harness that drive you can use it to your advantage. My dog always had that level of drive and therefore had tonnes of potential, it was just a case of working out how to harness it and use it.

And I do believe how a pup is raised is a big factor of how it will turn out for sports and competition as an adult.

I agree it can be easier the younger you start, but that's not to say it can't be done well with an adult dog. I never thought in a million years that I would compete with my beagle in obedience when I got her as a pup, but she's just turned three years old and we are looking at trialling in Feb/March next year. I won't be entering her until I know she's capable of high scores - rocking up to obedience with a beagle people congratulate you on just turning up so I want to show everyone just what they are capable of :D

I would say that I've harnessed her drive....just not to the extent that I wish I could. Believe me, I spend every waking day working with these guys, it's not for lack of trying, I do believe I've gotten to the peak of what I'll probably be able to get out of Gaci at this point.

I've harnessed and channelled her drive such that I can take her (and two other Schnauzers) on off-leash hikes safely with a group of seven dogs in fields upon fields.....we compete in agility (although she just started officially, and won't trial again until May, she's been training off-leash in an outdoor trial site for a year now)....she is now able to stop sniffing/chasing/wandering/eyeing up other dogs and focus solely on me when I ask it of her. Once upon a time these things would not happen....let offleash she'd be gone in 1.8 seconds hunting and into a fox or rabbit den somewhere. I don't mean for it to come across that we haven't made any progress, she's an awesome dog and we have a great working relationship, and I'm proud of her and myself.

I wish I could refine it further, but I do believe that at this time we've reached the extent to which I can refine it any more. That's not to say I don't continue trying, I'll always keep working, but I have a feeling that that is the case. If I'm to be proven wrong, it's only a good thing!

Shimmer, on the other hand, is a whole different bag o worms. I'm still learning how to channel her into what will make a great working team for agility, but we're on a good path. Her desires and drives are quite different altogether, but she has the downfall of facing a lot of conflict she has trouble overcoming. She is very driven, but often doesn't have the courage to follow through when certain pressures are put upon her. So we have to work things at an even different angle than we do for Gaci.

I can appreciate your difficulties, Kim. My mother's Vallhund, Pyry, is one of the most prey-driven dogs I've ever met, but he's not interested in anything if it's not real. For a while my mum was using a furry ball with a tail to try to get him to play as a reward, but in the end she abandoned it in favour of food. He would work for it, but only if he was in the mood. He was nearly always in the mood for food, though, and the more work she does with him with food the more interested he becomes.

I saw an ingenious use of real prey as a reward recently in a video where the fellow was training his bird dog with homing pigeons. The dog never got close to catching a pigeon and they always flew home safely.  

Like everyone else, I like to train things first using food rewards and diversify later. I like using tug and the likes because it gets them revved up a bit more. In my mind, the more practice they have being revved up and working through their excitment for a high value reward, the more reliable they become. I love to see my dogs overcome their intensity in a highly exciting situation to do what they are told.

Incidentally, it doesn't get Kivi revved up. He's generally pretty hard to rev. Nonetheless, he has shown that he certainly can give me a great deal of focus, and he can run to me when I ask him to even when he is more excited than he is during training. He can't work through his frustration nearly as well as Erik can, but that doesn't need to limit him. It just means it often takes a bit longer. He is in general a much harder dog than Erik to train, and it's harder to build reliability into his responses. That's my problem, though, not his. My friend has a dog just as soft as he is she is training for agility. She has to be very careful how she treats her dog and needs to think outside the square sometimes, but her dog is very capable of fast performance all the same.

I saw an ingenious use of real prey as a reward recently in a video where the fellow was training his bird dog with homing pigeons. The dog never got close to catching a pigeon and they always flew home safely.

So glad you mentioned this, and it is exactly what I mean when I say that you can train a dog to do most anything if you figure out how to motivate him and find out what reinforcement he's willing to work for.  It doesn't always have to be this inventive, but, for some dogs you really do have to get out the trainer thinking cap.  Don't limit yourself to food or a tug toy;-)

spiritdogs

  Sometimes, the dogs that appear less interested in class can benefit from some one on one training first.  I find that they often lack confidence, and do better in a familiar environment with no distraction.  Once they know some basics, it becomes a bit easier to work them outside the "cocoon."

 I some how knew this would be brought up. The dogs I mentioned where not stressed or "in a cocoon", they just didn't care about food or toys. They behaved the same way in one on one lessons and from what their owners told me, at home. The dogs had little interest in food beyond eating dinner and lost interest quickly in that if they had to do any work to get it. The Sibe/Sammy mix (who I now remember was a known mix of Sibe/Sammy/Chow) was the most independent dog I have ever been around.

Liesje

It might be something that needs to be developed.  Even for the crazy, drivey GSDs they don't always come out of the box this way.  Huski was talking about building the food drive so I assume he/she has done the same.  Nikon ignored balls for the first 5 months of his life.  The ball drive is something that *I* created so that I had an absolute motivator/reward ALL of the time (it's also my "emergency recall).  I needed a very experienced trainer to help me develop this drive and bring it out in the dog.  If you never have to work really hard to shape and channel the dog's drives, then you are an extremely lucky person.  To date I have spent considerably more time just developing ball drive than actually training and working my dog.  We did a ton of back-tying and agitation work to channel all of Nikon's prey drive and frustration into the ball.  As a youngster he was somewhat interested in a lot of things; we took all of that "somewhat" from those many things and crammed it all onto the ball, and now have a dog who's love for the ball has landed him at the vet's!

 My last couple dogs certainly came interested in tugging as puppies but IME if you don't really develop it, you get the dogs who only like it in certain situations as adults. I know dogs who are super drivey in their own yards with tugging and retrieving but disinterested if the toys are offered to them out of context. I suspect had tugging and retrieving been built on more when they were young dogs, they would work in drive for it without a problem.

 Last week I traded dogs with a friend in agility class. She questioned if Whimsy would work for her and I told her that Whimsy wanted to be with whoever had her toy. For fun here is 5 month old Whimsy working for her tug in puppy class. She is pretty good for it here but is much better now....maybe time for more videos :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYV36RzalOw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVSBoHKH0ps&NR=1