Border collie puppy unable to calm down around new puppy

 Maybe you could try the chill out game, where you get the dogs into a down before Skylar gets over the top, and then spend some time doing calming things, and then let them play again. I've had a similar problem with my two, only it's very much a two way street and they both get too rough together. I found that sometimes you just have to play referree and step in and get them both to lie down and relax for a bit. Sometimes once they are down I let them play from a lying down position, which is usually nice and gentle jaw sparring. It's good to stop it while it's appropriate play, though, and teach them that playing involves a little play, then a quiet time, then a little more play. Not just crazy, completely uninhibited play.

Both of these dogs need training, and after this experience, the Shih Tzu needs off leash play with dogs her own size to build her confidence.  Could your mom take her to a positive puppy class where there is a play time before class?  As to the rough play, you have a Border Collie, not a couch potato, and he needs physical and, more importantly, mental stimulation.  A two to four mile run is a lot of stress on puppy joints, so I would quit that.  Instead, try throwing tennis balls, or frisbees (that also has the added benefit of satisfying some of his predatory drives - so your message to him is that it's ok to shake the frisbee, but it is NOT ok to shake his sister).  Try some clicker training with him. BC's are sooooo smart that one way to ask him to cease his rough play is to ask him to do something else.  Go to your mat.  Get me the remote.  Lie down.  Spin.  Jump through that hoop.  Etc.  There are some free lessons at www.clickerlessons.com and great videos on youtube - just put "kikopup" into the search box.

I would not let these dogs play if the BC is bullying her to the point of her hiding under chairs and submissively urinating.  She's terrified and that's no way to go through life.   So, perhaps they can't be playmates, or at least not when things get rough.  Shaking is predatory behavior that can drift from play to "kill" accidentally, but quickly, so do not allow it. Try finding some larger dogs that your BC likes and make play dates, or send him to day care a time or two each week.  Once he's older, you could take up agility or some other dog sport to keep him busy.

Becca would be the one to ask on this...but I think she was going thru some things and mightn't be here right now. Anyone know if brookcove is around or able to respond on this? I recall some circumstance or another having happened a while back...

the picking up and shaking would concern me, too. It's almost prey like. Does he play in that manner or escalate like this, with other larger dogs? Has he played with a small/Toy breed before this? How did that go?

corvus

I found that sometimes you just have to play referree and step in

Corvus, I totally agree. Rough play is the same a jumping up, ankle nipping etc. It is natural activity for a young dog but you have to control the roughness the same way as you would other unwanted behaviours. I'm not saying the dogs shouldn't play, just that you have to find a way to stop the play from escalating. Your dog will be way more receptive to your direction before he get all wound up. Redirecting and calming is a good idea. 

spiritdogs

try throwing tennis balls, or frisbees (that also has the added benefit of satisfying some of his predatory drives - so your message to him is that it's ok to shake the frisbee, but it is NOT ok to shake his sister).  Try some clicker training with him. BC's are sooooo smart that one way to ask him to cease his rough play is to ask him to do something else.  Go to your mat.  Get me the remote.  Lie down.  Spin.  Jump through that hoop. 

I do all of that, and more. It's definitly not a situation of lack of mental and physical stimulation on Skylar's part, hence my description of his daily routine. He's in puppy-level dog sport classes, and goes with me to work, and plays with coworker's dogs in a fenced backyard, etc. And, like I also mentioned, she does that terrified thing, then she runs up and jumps on his face to play more. She tries to make it a two-way-street, it just doesn't work out to her advantage.

 I suggested puppy classes with my mom's puppy, but she refuses on the account of lac k of time.

I try to referee- maybe I just haven't given it long enough to get the concept to sink in? I try to cool them out/chill them down. I also try to distract him, but if you know BCs, you also probably know their focus and intensity on a given goal. He'll take toys that we're playing fetch with and try to 'trade' for Cassie if someone is holding her. He'll put his toy in your lap and try to take her instead. No matter how tired he is, he'll find the energy to go after her ceaselessly. I'd really hope that they could eventually be playmates- maybe not yet? Is she perhaps just too young and small/fragile to deal with a bigger dog like him?

SkysTheLimit

I do all of that, and more. It's definitly not a situation of lack of mental and physical stimulation on Skylar's part, hence my description of his daily routine. He's in puppy-level dog sport classes, and goes with me to work, and plays with coworker's dogs in a fenced backyard, etc. And, like I also mentioned, she does that terrified thing, then she runs up and jumps on his face to play more. She tries to make it a two-way-street, it just doesn't work out to her advantage.

Umm, you're really not getting what she's saying.  Border collies are *****HERDERS*****

Bit huge mega deal.  They need **specific types** of not just exercise but very very specific herding activities.  If they don't get it, then it is frustrating and they will pick up more on the 'prey' aspect instead of the HERDING aspect.   

Seriously -- everything you are doing is very physical -- .  You have to do HERDING games with a herder.  For example -- don't just give the dog a frisbee or a ball.

Take out a BUCKET of balls -- 10 of them.  STand and heave them ALL into the air so balls go flying in all directions.  Then  as he picks them up give him a treat for dropping them IN the bucket.  Then with a clicker you can shape that behavior  so he rolls them TO the bucket and drops it in ... or arounds them ALL and noses them in towards the bucket.

 I.e. -- you give him herding experiences -- of rounding things up and directing them.  You do this with balls, frisbees, and planned activities.  You get him to go help you gather up things from the yard ... but you DON'T let him herd people and "siblings".  But you give him that kind of experience so it takes the edge off the frustration.

When he's going thru the house with you does he ever bump against you in excitement to 'get' somewhere - or he runs ahead and then back towards you and maybe butts you a bit?  That's HERDING.   It's part of breathing for him -- and you have to uncover that and direct it properly or he'll be a mean little stinker to anything smaller than he is. 

He may already be actually frustrated enough that he's re-directing his herding instincts to "get" the puppy -- and of course the puppy WANTS his acceptance cos he's obviously "in charge". 

But I would be doing "nothing in life is free" with him ALL the time --   That can't just happen with the puppy comes out to play -- it has to be every single minute.  And just trying to wear them out isn't the real answer.    Just like a lab needs something IN ITS MOUTH all the time ... a herder has to herd and a hound has to sniff.  It's part of respecting your breed.

Herding dogs can be the most difficult to understtand -- and when that herding thing is thwarted they get mean about it. 

The other command specifically you have to teach is 'gentle".  And that is done every day ALL day.  He comes zooming up and pounces on YOU -- nope, don't let it happen.  "sit" for it.

This is all excellent advice for the OP. 

Herders need tons of mental stimulation, or they will get their jollies doing something you are most likely not gonna like.  Herders are smart-as-heck dogs, and daily training sessions not only teach them what behaviors are appropriate, but mental exercise can be just as tiring as physical exercise.  Puppy classes are great and very important, but training, especially for a young pup, should be done every day at home, several short sessions a day if you can.

BTW, Callie, I am totally going to do your "bucket of balls" exercise with Harry.  Maybe I can borrow a friend's video camera so I can post footage of him herding up all the balls, lol!  That sounds like a really fun and physically and mentally stimulating game.

I have three BC's, we have a routine.  First I must say is we are very lucky as we work from home.  my two youngest are only a day apart, so they grew up together and had each other for puppy play ( also same size dogs), are oldest is six years older, so he put them in their place and pretty much taught them their doggie manners.  The person who said about running everyday or every other day is correct.  I have a friend who recently adopted a 2 yr old BC whose owner couldn't handle the dog and thought something was wrong with it since they ran 5 miles everyday and the dog still wasn't satisfied.  Border collies are very loyal to their owners and LOVE interactive play.  I totally agree with the hearding games, our yard is on a slope so all the balls roll down the hill, when we go out it is their job to find us the toys.  We also do multiple rounds of Frisbee everyday, bit game for them, makes them focus intensely on where that disc is going especially on windy and rainy days.  (yes, must play in rain with BC's)!  In house at night, we keep toys everywhere, so they go and herd up the toys is they come to us for play and then the game of fetch begins.  Or the toys are in closet and we open the door and they pick out the toy they want to play with.  During the day, they already know if we are typing on the computer to lay down next to us, but if we are not doing work or on the phone well then it could potentially be play time.  Take a break always works for those moments.

As for the new puppy, my concern is the puppy jumps on your Bc's face.  From my understanding most BC's or herding breeds to not like other dogs in their face.  I know a few and one of mine is just like that.  My parents poodle gets in my one dogs face all the time to play and he does not like it.  Lucky as they have gotten older both have learned to kind of keep their own space.  But that took alot of time.    As for the shaking, my dogs shake their web balls all the time, as well as some of their stuffed toys.  Discs are for their structured herding games and they know never to chew, shake, etc. their discs - discs the suburban BC's version of a sheep!  Sorry just a joke:)  

Personally I could never see any of my dogs shaking a live animal.  That would really scare me as I could see it escalating into a horror.  We have two cats and that is their herding game - funny thing is I have such a well balanced animal house that the cats think its a fun game.  What is really funnly is when my oldest cat turns the game around and chases the dogs, the the BC's run - sorry but that is funny!!!  

Sorry I know this probably doesn't help much. But thought I would try and help.

BTW- Callie _ I really like the bucket of balls also, need to do that this weekend with the boys!  That will be fun!!!!!!!!!  Great idea!!!!! 

"Once upon a time ..." (that means a Callie-true-story coming up) there was this corgi/sheltie mix who was a MEGA neurotic mess until his owner/guardian learned a thing or thirty.

I couldn't figure out WHY this dog was such a nutcase **at TIMES** in the car.  Now riding?  nooooo problem.  Dog took to the open road like nobuddy's business.  But in town?  GASP -- ACKKKKKKKKK.  And heaven forbid -- at an intersection ... or **WORSE** in a .....SHUDDER -- PARKING LOT???

He was out of his skin and out of control.  What was this need for speed? 

nope.

 wrong answer mom!!

When you're on an interstate or open road all the cars are going either the same direction you are -- or straight away from you.  No biggie.  Nice ***neat*** lines.  It's a herder's dream!!

But ... at an intersection?  where some cars stop, some go, some go left, some go right ... some stop ... and heaven forbid -- people waiting at bus stops, some walking, some crossing the street.

ACK!!!! herder nightmare!!  He would go NUTZOID in the car because he wanted to straighten up the messy traffic!!  nooooooooooooooo people can't some be crossing the street, some standing (while we're moving) ....

GETTA CLUE PEOPLE __ WE ALL GOTTA GO THE SAME WAY!!!

He wanted to "herd" pedestrians and other cars (and we won't even mention what a neurotic mess he was over a freaking bike!!)

And in a parking lot -- ohhhhhhhhhhhh it was even worse -- people stoppping willy nilly all over -- some going in a space, some coming out.  Everbuddy all over the place!!!

 One day I finally had a watershed moment and realized it was all about movement.  And because he couldn't control all those people, cars, buses trucks, etc. and their movement -- it drove him insane.

I discovered I could deal with a lot of that with my voice.  "Nope -- that line is SUPPOSED to turn that way.  It's ok.  Mom sez!"

And in his little herder mind, once "mom said" it was OK ... ahhh that's good enough.  It's NOT NICE ... because it's "messy" --  herders are the organizers of the dog world.  They don't want another dog to decide which way it's going (nor the sheep, etc.) -- THEY want to be in control of it.  Unless the human is calling the shots.

Another true story --

It was like June -- and finally my husband was going to throw away that pine branch that got ditched out back (the one that had been on the mantle that never got out to the trash soon eough??) and in hauling it out to where he could tie it up with yard trash of course needles fell off all over the concrete patio.

Foxy was out there -- and now he's not a young dog any more (about 12 at this time).  But I saw him sit up and take notice as David dragged that branch and all those needles fell off.  I'm thinking "time for the broom -- soon as I get done with this ..." but nope.

It was a breezy day. - enough to make the chimes noisy.  Bud suddenly I saw the MOstlie Sheltie slowly .. almost stealthily  make his way over to ... what???  He was creeping along like he was shadowing 007 or something.  huh??

I saw him begin to make this big huge circle. 

and oh yeah -- I really AM gonna have to sweep up those pine needles before they blow all over ...

HUH??? I see the MOstlie Sheltie actually circle those pine needles.  They were moving a bit in the breeze ... and ... dang, he's circling ... what???

He was circling those needles (the biggest bunch of them) -- and he began to circle faster ... and faster ....  and .... FASTER ....

Now the pine needles are really moving .. in fact ... the centrifugal force from the circling was actually LEVITATING those needles.

***HE WAS HERDING PINE NEEDLES***

I learned something that day. The more outlet I gave him for herding the less neurotic he was.  I mean ... c'mon ... the poor dog was trying to HERD **PINE NEEDLES** (in June). 

So I began to come up with games ... he didn't like toys.  But he would "help" me and pick things up. The more I understood the herding and the more I directed it ... the better of he was. 

This wasn't about "play" -- it was about regimen -- it was about what was ... almost aesthetically pleasing to him.  Messy traffic.  messy balls.  It all equates to nervousness for them. 

And the agitated behavior I'd always noted .. the failure to settle, the failure to "leave someone alone" ... HERDING frustration. 

If I didn't say to him "Cmon -- come help me change the beds" -- he would STILL tag along with me but he'd drive me nuts trying to bump my legs or pace.  But once I began "asking him to help" -- or asking him to GO with me -- and verbally telling him when something was "ok" -- all of a sudden he began to relax.

It works.  And the bucket of balls is a huge training exercise.   but it works.

SkysTheLimit

 I suggested puppy classes with my mom's puppy, but she refuses on the account of lac k of time.

Your mother's unwillingness to devote time to her puppy's training doesn't bode well for a happy lifetime of companionship with her dog.  She's already missed the crucial socialization period.  Perhaps you could offer to attend classes with the puppy. The puppy can still benefit from a positive training class.  The time spent now will pay off for the rest of the dog's life.  Many people believe a small breed doesn't require training but nothing could be farther from the truth.  I know you didn't ask for advice concerning your mom's puppy but I couldn't not comment on this aspect of your situation.

I think you are wise to be asking for some advice on how to help the dogs get along and you've gotten some great ideas.  Maybe you can try and gently educate your mom on how to raise a happy, well balanced puppy.  This puppy can be a wonderful companion or a neurotic mess depending on the choices made now.