Not scared to be scared

corvus

I have to say, I AM scared of damaging my dogs' psyche, and don't understand why you wouldn't be if you really cared about the wellbeing of the animals in your care.

Corvus, I find your statement intriguing. I guess from my personal POV I would have to say I am pretty confident in my relationship with my dog and confident that my actions/reactions/interactions are not the least bit damaging to his psyche. I trust myself not to cross that line but I also believe my dog (and most dogs) is not so fragile as to suffer a 'break' if I impose a reasonable punishment. Dogs are pretty resilient IMO and I think we do them a disservice if we treat them like any adversity may send them over the edge.

corvus

It doesn't bother me in the slightest when people accuse me of being scared to punish my dogs.

I think there is a difference between choosing not to use punishment and being 'scared' to use punishment. Being scared implies to me that you (general) do not trust your instincts or you don't know your dog well enough to access their reaction. Choosing not to use punishment should be more about the kind of relationship you want with your dog not about being afraid.

corvus

I can still do it, but I hope it will always be a very big deal to me if I do. Scared and proud of it, folks.

So, you are scared of damaging your dog's psyche but you still use punishments. Maybe 'cautious' would be a better term? 

 While it is true that dogs are quite resilient, I view them as a tricky animal in the sense that when I go too far with my hare, he runs away. Pretty freaking obvious. When I go further than necessary with my dog, all he might do is look away from me. Or sniff the ground. Or put his ears down. People say all the time that they are perfectly confident that their dog is happy and their training methods have no long term impact on them, but that's exactly what I thought. I was wrong. How can you know that your training methods have no long term impact? You can't.

I am afraid of punishing my dogs because I one day looked at my last dog and suddenly, dreadfully realised that I had been wrong for the last 9 years and I had let her down time and time again and she would never trust me again the way she did when she was a puppy and I had never made a habit of punishing her. I have never felt so ashamed and appalled at myself. I am afraid of feeling that way again, and that is what makes me so cautious now.

I will do it if I think it needs to be done, but I don't think it's a bad thing to be scared of doing something to your dog that you will later regret. I am also scared of catching my hare. I hate doing it. I put it off as long as possible and when I can't put it off any longer my heart pounds and I stress out. Good. Catching my hare is not a matter to be taken lightly. That anxiety and stress has led to me finding several ways to approach this that involve less stress to my hare. Sometimes anxiety and stress about animal welfare is valuable to animals. 

Denise, I agree with you about being confident in the relationship.  If anything ever led me to be scared for the dog's psyche, then it probably *is* something that could damage the dog.  While I do use corrections, the relationship with the dog is the MOST important thing.  It should be built on clear, consistent communication so the dog is ALWAYS happy and willing by his own accord to interact and work with the owner/handler.  It's not just improper punishments that can shut a dog down.  I've seen a few GSDs with owners who have only ever done positive training and if anything have let their dogs get away with murder and treat them like doormats and yet they try to play with their dog or do some simple heeling and the dog is completely distracted by the environment, not looking anywhere near the direction of the owner, and appears to be totally apathetic to the presence of the owner.   

If you're scared to try something then by all means don't.  *You* know your dog better than anyone else.  You are the advocate for your dog.  All dogs are different.  I train all three of my dogs totally differently.  I would never impose one method on one dog simply because it worked for another.  My three dogs are at opposite points on a triangle, they really couldn't be any more different and run the gamut as far as training, temperament, and behavior. 

You should not be proud of being scared, you should be proud of building a confident relationship with your dog and not letting anyone else get in the way.

I agree with Leisje. I have seen dogs trained with correction based methods and positive methods both suffer a lot of stress at competitions. The reason stems from the same thing in many cases too - lack of confidence. Dogs trained with correction based methods lack confidence due to being overly corrected and under rewarded. Dogs trained with motivational methods lack confidence because the owner has failed to proof the dog or fade rewards before entering competition. The dog looks great at practice, when they can use food/toys and talk to the dog but falls apart in competition. I have seen dogs I know for sure have not been trained with corrections that lag far behind in heeling and seem like they really HATE obedience - most people watching would assume the dog has been overcorrected.

 I am not sure exactly what you mean by "punish", as there are many, many things which fall into the catagory of corrections. I have used different sorts of correction effectively on both my dogs and client dogs for certain behavioral issues. I posted recently about using a negative marker to mark the behavior I didn't like and sour drops to correct my dog for becoming reactive on lead to other dogs. Paired with using a clicker to mark the behavior I did want, my dog's behavior quickly improved and I am confident that she DID understand what she was being corrected for. I would consider that to be a physical correction in a way but doesn't involve anything which could be "too forceful". I have done "abandonment training" for dogs with aggression issues, which involves the owner leaving the dog's sight while the dog is tied whenever the dog shows any aggression. That is a correction too but not a physical one.

Liesje

You should not be proud of being scared, you should be proud of building a confident relationship with your dog and not letting anyone else get in the way.

I am! I just acknowledge that fear is an important aspect of my own behaviour and why I choose to build the kinds of relationships I do. I don't think there is anything wrong with a little fear, or healthy respect as it may be.

I perhaps think a little too much before I do things with my animals, but that's who I am, and what my experiences have made of me. I plan carefully and try to predict as best I can what will happen. I wouldn't argue that corrections are somehow the only way you can do ill by your dog. I guess I expect my dogs to pay attention to me a lot even when we are in the dog park for them to have a fun time. It's never something I would correct over, though. I make a real effort to be someone my dogs naturally like hanging out with, so I don't need to demand things of them. That's all. 

corvus

I guess I expect my dogs to pay attention to me a lot even when we are in the dog park for them to have a fun time. It's never something I would correct over, though. I make a real effort to be someone my dogs naturally like hanging out with, so I don't need to demand things of them.

Nothing wrong with this at all.  As an example, this past weekend we had to travel for a funeral.  It was short notice so I had no one to watch my dogs (everyone was hunting, opening deer).  I took them along and we simply asked for a dog-friendly room near the back door of the hotel.  Next to the hotel was a small field bordered by a busy road, the hotel, and a busy gas station, so we weren't out in the middle of nowhere with no distraction.  I was out there one afternoon with Nikon, playing fetch and just letting him run to burn off his energy from being crated in the van so long (here we cannot leave dogs unattended in the hotel even if it's a pet-friendly room).  He was just running around like crazy and a ton of people in our family came out to unpack and see our dogs.  They were amazed that he was not running away being off lead (would have been very easy) and that every so often he came back to me, licked my hand, and ran off again.  They ask me how we do that and to be honest, I've never taught Nikon a recall, other than the formal front finish in SchH but that is very, very contextual for the dog.  From day one with me at 7 weeks I've always let him run around me and praised him, pet him up for "checking in".  Our relationship is built on all fun drive building and confidence boosting games that set the foundation for his other training.  At club we get comments on being a great "team" because I don't have to coax my dog to focus or work with me.  *He* is the one asking *me* if we can go train.  Each night he paces in circles, stopping at my training bad where I keep the gear, and circling back to me with a little whine like "come ON let's go already!!". 

If one has to work really hard to get their dog engaged and paying attention, then either they are asking too much of the dog, or there's an issue in the relationship that precedes what can be accomplished with training.

Although I certainly wouldn't say that I am afraid of damaging my dogs' psyches, I am cognizant that they are sentient beings, who are worthy of respect and care.  One reason I choose to limit my use of corrections is that I am confident that one can learn to train using motivational methods and not have to rely on punishment very much, AND it certainly makes the work more enjoyable for both me and my dogs.  I have a dog that is constitutionally quite shy, yet has been able to perform extremely well in public and become a truly magical therapy dog.  Our relationship is built on trust and fairness (and I bend over backwards to see that what I do is fair, not just from my pov, but from hers, too.)   I don't blame you for considering your dogs' mental attitude and doing all you can to see that your relationship with them is a trusting one, too.  It's so rewarding when you accomplish a lot as a team without the need to coerce or frighten a dog, but rather, to have them working with you out of joy and a sense that you will provide the resources and guidance they need to feel secure.

corvus

I have to say, I AM scared of damaging my dogs' psyche, and don't understand why you wouldn't be if you really cared about the wellbeing of the animals in your care. It doesn't bother me in the slightest when people accuse me of being scared to punish my dogs. It's true, and for reasons that are intensely important to me. I hope it will always be true for me. I can still do it, but I hope it will always be a very big deal to me if I do. Scared and proud of it, folks.

There are lots of ways you can "damage" a dog that doesn't involve punishment. I would feel miserable if I was always living in fear that the way I train my dogs could damage them. I've made mistakes with my dogs in the past and although it makes you feel terrible when you realise you have done/are doing the wrong thing, it's an opportunity to learn and be better next time.

At the end of the day I am completely confident with the methods I use, and I am proud of the relationship I have with the my dogs. That doesn't mean I don't think I will make mistakes, but IMO I think it's important to be confident with the methods you use and confident when you are handling your dogs.

I care about my dogs (of course I do) and I am scared of something happening to them, but generally I'm not scared that I'm doing the wrong thing. I look at my dog, and how keen she is to work and how much joy and happiness she shows when we are training and I know that I've got the most important stuff right.

Huski, that's the exact point I'm making. I don't habitually use punishments because I'm not confident with them. I do not think this is a bad thing. Not doing something because you are scared of the repercussions and being confident of what you are doing go hand in hand to me. Damaging a dog's psyche is something I'm scared of doing, although IME, it's very easy to recover from mistakes you make with positive methods and much harder to recover from mistakes you make with punishments. It's circular. That is the reason why I choose the methods I do.

I am not scared that I am doing the wrong thing because I heeded my fears of doing the wrong thing. If that makes any sense.  

corvus

although IME, it's very easy to recover from mistakes you make with positive methods and much harder to recover from mistakes you make with punishments.

IMO it depends on what kind of mistake you've made. I don't agree with such a blanket statement - rewarding a dog for the wrong behaviour or allowing the dog to reward itself for the wrong behaviour can be incredibly difficult to fix.

Personally, I belive that how quickly a dog "recovers" from a handler mistake/miscommunication/tough correction is mostly determined by the temperament of the dog.  That said, the training method would also take into account the temperament of the dog, so hopefully the handler can reliably predict how a dog will react to any reward or punishment and that a mistake would not be enough to ruin or shut down the dog.

I've made "mistakes" with Kenya where I've vocalized my frustration (like "OMG NO!" if I catch her chewing something) and she will be down and leery of me for a while, or even if I am verbally correcting another dog in her presence.  I've made mistakes with Nikon where I over correct, or step on his drag line and inadvertently correct and he might even yelp but he recovers instantly.  These reactions have everything to do with the temperaments of the dogs.  It's rare that I'd make the same mistake with one dog that I would another because they are trained so very differently with totally different markers, tools, and rewards.

You make a good point, Lies, in that if you've picked the right training methods for your dog one would assume they will recover from training mistakes pretty quickly, whether you are using corrections or rewards.