E-collar discussion

Liesje

I think most people use shock collars either for positive punishment or negative reinforcement (IMO too many use them for the former when they work much more effectively with the latter), so it would make no sense for them to think that the dog did not find the shock to be aversive.  Why would they use it then?  You need it to be aversive for positive punishment or negative reinforcement to work.

Hi

One of the things that concerns me with e collars over other adversives is the instantaneous effect on the brain. The brain relies on  electrical and chemical signals to function. we know now that many of these signals are localised and can be charectersied.  The signal levels are very small though. As  a first order of magnitude, I think that even a mild stim form an  e collar would cause some blanking (signals stop in some part of the brain) or an even worse alternative which is serious malfunction for a period. I think that based on my own human experience it is the first alternative. It is very hard to meaasure what happens as the mere operation of an e collar sends most of the very sensitive sensors silly.

I have seen methods here for teaching the recall based on R- use of an e collar. To me (may be i just have had very good dogs)  they seem a little slow compared to the mostly R+ methods i use. I do use a bit of P+ if i have too. It could tend to suggest that there may be a blanking period which may cause a longer lag than one would expect between cue and stimulus.

 I think that there is a promising future using both electric fields and magnentic fields for the treatment and training of dogs. But these instruements are a good deal more sophisticated and the science is a bit raw. To illustrate, it is an interesting excercise to imagine an electrode that can be connected to a dog with total comfort. Magnetic fields can be used in a non contact fashion. I am fairly sure that the use of these fields could be non adversive.

I am writing this as a professional in the areas of signal processing and power electronics rather than a dog trainer. I am an EE with more than a year or two of experience who is involved in research in these areas. You are welcome to contact me privately with you wish to discuss the technical details in a constructive way.

I didn't want this thread to turn into a "SchH = e-collars" thread, but for anyone who is more interested in SchH training in general (this is not about e-collars), this is a really great thread on the GSD board.  These are some really great breeders, trainers, and helpers that have been surrounded by working dogs for decades.  They are talking specifically about SchH and how in order to maintain the true breed test there *must* be "balance" - balance in the drives used, balanced in the training methods, balance in pressure vs. reward.  There are people who try to make a name for themselve using 100% positive methods in SchH but this proves nothing other than that they are good trainers, it proves nothing about the dog which is why SchH was developed and why it is used.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1266344&page=1&fpart=1