Is is true some dogs are just so loyal if they fear their master is in trouble they will defend them?

And the opposite is true too.  My dog who is training in protection and bitework loves people, even new people coming in the house.  To him, a "threat" is not simply a person in a shadow, a stranger wearing a hooded jacket, someone new walking through the door...a threat is someone that is verbally and physically threatening or assaulting him.  I know how he will react since we have simulated this in training (but not after a year of work getting to that point).  I can't say for sure yet whether he will really "defend" me since that isn't something that has been tested.

 I think that dogs - like every other species on the planet - are thoroughly selfish. Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene explains why this is so. Essentially, altruistic genes are bad for an individual, whereas selfish genes are good, because self preservation is an extremely sensible motivation! If an animal puts themselves at risk for no gain to themselves, there is always the risk that they will die and their selfless genes will go with them. If they risk themselves often enough, it will happen sooner or later. Whereas the individual that buggers off at the first sign of trouble is likely to live a long and fruitful life.

My old corgi had a mortal terror of horses and donkeys. One time I was making friends with some horses we had found while hiking. Penny tried very hard to get me to run away with her, and when I didn't she retreated to the other side of the gate and waited for me there with much agitation. It was fascinating to see the fear of horses repelling her but the compulsion to stay with me holding her. She found the distance where she wasn't so close to the horses that her desire to run outweighed her desire to stay with me and that is where she stayed until I finally came to join her.
 

corvus

 I think that dogs - like every other species on the planet - are thoroughly selfish. Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene explains why this is so. Essentially, altruistic genes are bad for an individual, whereas selfish genes are good, because self preservation is an extremely sensible motivation

My favorite author, Heinlein, also highlighted this in some of his characters. Self-interest is where everyone operates from, whether they believe it or not. Even "altruistic" feelings have a selfish side. Doing something "altruistic" makes the person feel good about themselves. Doing things for others can also bring some unity or sense of community that could provide better security for all. The most honest deal is where everyone gets what they want. This is why reward training works so well for dogs, dolphins, humans, etc. In fact, I have said before, no doubt to the chagrin of others, that dogs are the ultimate capitalists. Resource acquisition and conservation. And more is better. And out of that, generosity (seemingly so) that leads to good things for each other in the future. If your generosity makes the world a better place, does that not benefit you with a better place to live in (what goes around, comes around)?

Dogs are not loyal out of fear of their humans. They are loyal because evolutionary experience has shown, most times, that they survive as a species better by being symbiotic with Man. Otherwise, all dogs would be as dingos are. Can dogs feel love? Maybe so. First, define love. Why do you love someone? Is it because of the way it makes you feel, wanted, treasured, cared for? It is all about you (in general), after all.

Why do we treasure loyalty from our dogs? Because it feels like love. The dog awaits you and wants to be with you. Always there with a wagging tail and toothy grin at the end of your day, no matter how badly that day went.

     I just found this thread and read it with  great interest. My question to several of you is, why is a dog's seeming defense of his owner "resource guarding", whereas a person defending their dog considered altruistic?

     Isn't it true that most species would rather run from danger then turn and face it? Why will most species, including our own, risk their life in defense of their young? Is it love, instinct, resource guarding?

   The following are several incidents that I have been personally involved in. What do you consider the dogs motivation for their actions in each:

    1. My 2 year old Dobe sees or hears me trying to scare off two aggresive,feral dogs in a pasture about 100 yards from where she's at. She runs to, and immediatly attacks the two dogs, both larger then her, and drives them off. I did not call her.

    2. A different Dobe, 3 years old, also female, was with me at a schutzhund seminar. She was ignoring all the goings on and the clinician said that most american bred Dobes are too timid. He struck me on the shoulder, and she had him on the ground before he could react.

    3. My sweet female Border collie, while working the sheep, drives off two strange dogs that come onto our field, then goes back to her task.

    4. My sound phobic male Border collie will take his sheep back to their pen when he hears thunder or gunshots. He is truelly terrified, but he won't run for the house until the sheep are safe. He also pushes me and the other dogs towards the house, and he can't relax until everybody is in, and to his mind safe.

    5. And a silly one. Another one of my male Border collies is willing to risk his life to save a ball that rolls onto the road. Fortunatly his moving down is reliable!

I don't think a dog's defense of the owner is always "resource guarding" nor do I think it's always selfless devotion;-)  Dogs that have strong pack drive will often defend a helpless member of their social group, and wolves have been known to take food to injured members who cannot hunt.  For dogs, just as for wolves, there is a species predisposition for cooperation in a social group. 

Dobes have been bred for many years (the good ones anyway) to recognize a threat and act.  You would not probably expect the same conduct from a Viszla.  So, again, no absolutes.  However, we were talking majority - and the majority of dogs are not the "enforcers" they are the "guarders" or the "who cares who gets it as long as I don't have to fight for it".  If most dogs were not like that, there would be wayyyy more dog fights:-)

     I agree that dogs very social  animals and that much of their behavior reflects this. Also, I don't think there are a lot of absolutes in the behavior of dogs. They are, each and everyone, an individual, with different breed characteristics, and life experiences. An old cowboy once told me that he thinks horses have become much more intellegent over the years, and I wonder if this may be true for dogs as well.

     Kinder training methods, and open minds to the potential of individuals, has given us dogs that can be trained as handicaped assistants, and sniffers that can find nearly anything. I've known therapy dogs that also excell at schutzhund, and in our area there is a woman with triple champion poodles (conformation, agility, and obedience). Used to be we thought that a dog couldn't be a conformation dog and an obedience competitor.

As the owner of a smart horse, I agree with your old cowboy friend:-))  I also think that as we learn more about the actual abilities of dogs we may come to respect them more.  That can only lead to kinder treatment and ever more effective ways of communicating with them.  That reminds me, I've been meaning to send off for Karen Pryor's new book "Reaching the Animal Mind".

billsmom

I've known therapy dogs that also excell at schutzhund, and in our area there is a woman with triple champion poodles (conformation, agility, and obedience). Used to be we thought that a dog couldn't be a conformation dog and an obedience competitor.

In this area of the woods there is one breeder that makes a habit of doing dual and triple poodle champions. Here is her web site  www.gidaypoodles.com

I tend to follow in Linda's shadow in the ring :) She is also an R+ trainer who is an advocate of David Weston's Gentle Modern Method, another Victorian

Luci my oldest poodle is a tracking champion and the daughter of show champions. I believe that she will be an OC and may be a TSD champ as well.She has the potential but her handler can't quite keep up :)

Sam is a show champion and has huge potential.  He is a great tracker and a dynamic obedience and agility dog.

I use show stock because show poodles here tend to have very confident and patient temperaments. If they haven't they don't get there.

Sam was a champ in 13 mounths.

 Hi This is OT a bit but there is a lto more convergence between Mammals emotional systems than we would ever like to admit.

Karen Pryor's new book uses some of the work done by Jaak Pankseep in "Affective Neuroscience". I think that this book may be up there with Skinner's work in time.

I also note that Temple Grandin's book "Making Animals Happy" quotes and explains some of this work too.

It offers a great synthesis between drive and behavourist models in the fine print.

I really reccomend buying it and letting your brain go for a walk with what if questions. If anything you will be even less inclined to use Aversives as it becomes obvious how limiting on a Neuro Chemical and Emotional basis that they are .

I was able to satisfy myself with understanding how to play with my dogs.

Fear is an emotion that in Mammals limits rewarding behaviors such as PLAY and SEEKING. I am not being rude, it is the way the book writes them