For those with hyper dogs..

brookcove

if the only source of zinc and choline was going to be ostrich pancreas, then they'd have a long time to wait on that!

brookcove

Raw and homecooked are exactly the same in terms of digestibility.  There are differences in handling, preparation, management with each but neither is inherently superior to the other.

I beg to differ. Heat changes the protein's structure (raw egg white changes color when cooked).  Raw protein is much more easily digested!

Here is one study that has been done on it http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/3/669.pdf.

K9 Kitchen, yup - thanks!  Where was my head?  And what's K9Nutrition?  Is that a real group?  I hope I didn't accidentally direct someone to a porno site or something. 

I supplement B with my older dogs just because I think it's good management (I have a friend who works with dementia in humans and she's seen lots of evidence that it responds well to increased B in the diet).  My other dogs get an awful lot of grain in addition to raw organ meat, so they do well with B without supplementation (except for choline as I've mentioned, which is a sort of B-precursor nutrient).

if you're going to do this keep in mind that it's NOT cheap up front. Kibble, even high-end or expensive (not always the same thing ) kibble is a LOT cheaper. I estimate a home-cooked or home-prepared raw diet costs about the same as feeding a canned diet. However, I think most (some folks will get unlucky) people who feed fresh diets will save in other areas such as vet visits and teeth cleanings.

To feed appropiately, it can get more expensive. I personally haven't found it to be super expensive, and I thoroughly enjoy shopping for Kane. It's fun to go through all the yummy treats I can concoct and snatching up deals on meat that I wouldn't eat. Plus the look of contentment on his doggy face is priceless!

nataliem

I beg to differ. Heat changes the protein's structure (raw egg white changes color when cooked).  Raw protein is much more easily digested!

Here is one study that has been done on it http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/3/669.pdf.

The pdf you cited was referring to the cooking process in commercial canned products which is MUCH different than what we "home-cook."  The heat used to cook all of those ingredients into mush is ridiculously higher than the stove or a boiling pot of water, which is why you lose so much nutrient content in commercially prepared foods.

When you look at the nutrient content of a raw piece of chicken vs. a boiled piece of chicken, the change is unremarkable. ;)
 

brookcove

The other way I believe improves on nature's way - taking the paradigm of natural food and balance over the long term, and simply ensuring that balance through having a plan and supplementing it where necessary to achieve optimum nutrition.  I went from the first way to the second because I realized three things:

• My dogs perform "on the edge" - you don't put diesel fuel into a formula 1 race car.  I want to give them every advantage I can.
• I spent a lot of time worrying and tweaking "just in case."  This way I have my plan and then I leave it unless something changes with the dog.
• Variety over time only works if you actually can get variety.  My dogs were eating a lot of the same foods - if the only source of zinc and choline was going to be ostrich pancreas, then they'd have a long time to wait on that!   They only got brain, a natural source of several vital nutrients, when I culled a sheep or at lambing time.  Was that enough?  I wasn't sure.

       This is the way I chose too, because with Jessie turning ten and with the assault on her immune system from her allergies, I wanted to be sure she's getting all the nutrients she needs, plus according to Monica the variety approach still leaves nutritional gaps or results in excesses. I had a consultation with Mordanna, who has the same educational background in animal nutrition as Monica. I was a little worried about how Jessie would do; she had been on a kibble that really clicked with her, resulting in a softer, thicker coat and no dandruff. Her coat has stayed nice on the home cooked, even softer, and she has more energy.

  To the OP; I'm glad your dog is doing well but I truly think you should do what Becca suggested to insure a balanced diet.
 

I thought that dogs get zinc from red meat. And choline from raw egg yolk.

They do - the problem is that it's not enough.  I was kidding about the ostrich pancreas though - I have no idea about the nutritional profile of ostrich pancreas.  LOL

The only nutitional source I know of that supplies enough zinc in reasonable amounts (ie, the dog wouldn't have to eat pounds and pounds of food), is oysters.  I don't like the idea of depending on a source as unstable and processed as oysters, for something as important to me as zinc.  Other people do just fine with it.  But you still have to run the numbers to figure out how much you need - it depends on whether you are using lamb (high zinc) or pork/chicken (very low zinc) for your main protein source.

This is just an example.  It's the sort of thing that before I'd think about, and then try to calm myself with the "variety over time" mantra, and then never really satisfy my nervousness.

On the subject of choline - this is a very important nutrient when discussing the original topic - mood and nervous system management.  It's incredibly vital for older dogs.  Before I balanced their whole diets holistically, I still used a choline supplement after a friend who works with dementia patients directed me to studies that showed how the effects of aging on brain function can be ameliorated with this one nutrient.

brookcove

I thought that dogs get zinc from red meat. And choline from raw egg yolk.

They do - the problem is that it's not enough. 

 nataliem; you said you feed 2 pounds of ground beef, turkey, etc., over a weeks' time mixed with mashed potatoes and a few vegetables. If you used 85% lean ground beef, for example, your dog is getting about 101mg of choline a day; you didn't say how many potatoes you use but they're a poor source of choline. According to the 2006  NRC guidelines, your dog needs  318.6 mg of choline a day. For the zinc, you're feeding about 8.7 mg; your dog needs about 14 mg.

 I just wanted to point out that many people see great results when they start feeding their dogs a home prepared meal, either cooked or raw.  Then they get over confident, and stop watching.  I'm not saying you're going to do this, just saying it happens.  The results you're seeing are likely due as much to not pumping them full of of the crap put into highly processed kibble, as the nutritional superiority of fresh food.

Dogs won't show things like a zinc deficiency after a week.  It may take a month, or 6 months to be really noticable, and then take as long or longer to correct it if you even can.  Never stop watching, and never stop researching.

My dog gets fed different from day to day.     Ground beef with mashed potatoes for a whole week was a one time thing, when we were just starting out.        

Now days she gets chicken, beef or turkey 50% of her meal and the rest 40% is rice or mashed potatoes.    Plus I give either RMBs or ground egg shell in the evenings. She also gets raw eggs, DE, tomatoes, sauerkraut, peanut butter, bread, and all kinds of left overs.  I think she gets enough zinc from that.

We just had a new pet shop open very close to us and they sell frozen raw meat. I think I will switch her to that.   It's beginning to be time consuming to make her meals from scratch 2 times a day.

  If you're good at number crunching, there's a way to make sure your dog's getting a balanced diet without paying for a consultation. Monica Segal's book Optimal Nutrition;  http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25&products_id=101, which is $25, has the 2006 NRC recommended allowances. She tells how to use the tables to determine your dog's nutritional needs according to his weight. Then you can use the information on the USDA website; http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7783  to formulate a balanced diet. I purchased the book and was able to calculate Jessie's daily requirements but when I tried to formulate a diet, I decided it was too confusing , hence the consultation.

 I'm  horrible at number crunching but between the Spreadsheet King with whom I live, and Monica's book, the NRC web site, and the instructions on K9 Kitchen's archive - it wasn't that hard to put together SEVEN diets.  One of which was Ben's - talk about some limitations!

The payoff was the fact that we can buy pretty much the same thing every time we shop, and I fix the same thing every week, so the longer I do it the easier and faster it gets.  Even Patrick can shop for the dogs now - he knows as well as I do what the bi-weekly weekly shopping list is, nine pounds of heart meat, 10 pounds of white potatoes, 5 pounds of sweet,  6 cans of fish, 4 bunches of parsley, 1 net of garlic, one jicama, one pound carrots, one 9 pound slab of pork rib, two ten pound bags of chicken and 3 pounds of either lamb or goat (or just skip that if there's some in the freezer as there usually is).

That looks horrendous but remember, again, that I'm feeding six dogs here.  Five big eaters, and wee little dog. 

brookcove

nine pounds of heart meat, 10 pounds of white potatoes, 5 pounds of sweet,  6 cans of fish, 4 bunches of parsley, 1 net of garlic, one jicama, one pound carrots, one 9 pound slab of pork rib, two ten pound bags of chicken and 3 pounds of either lamb or goat