vomiting immediately after eating? - update page 6

NicoleS

Their allergy testing was a sort of voodoo as well, not skin or blood related, but rather vials of things that I would hold, and touch Sammy and we would see if that caused a reaction?  Something like that. I am too much of a scientist to trust that without actually seeing it.

*rolling my eyes* -- that's kinesology and it's not MY thing either.  Now for something for ME, ok ... it has some merit (but not as diagnostic but in a choice of this or that med?  sure, it's ok.  But not for the dog -- that's carrying that way too far (and I'm pretty open-minded about that stuff).

Call the equine vets before you dismiss them -- that's their specialty -- but then again it may not be the only thing they do.  Or maybe it is -- I'd ask.

You only do the initial elmination trial for 3 weeks and then week by week you add ONE new ingredient.  A friend of mine who took her dog to Cornell started with white potato and peas.  For a few weeks -- even months, it is *not* a big deal for it not to be balanced.  Not when you are trying to diagnose.  With the prescription diets they hope you'll just leave the dog ON it -- problem solved. 

Going someplace like Cornell -- typically when I've done a vet school you just plain make the appointment and go stay overnight.  Often the difference in price between specialist testing and vet school testing can make it a really easy financial decision. 

But honestly?  Right now I think truly your critical problem is figuring out what's causing the vomiting.  And I don't think it's allergies.  I could be real wrong -- but it's debilitating.

calliecritturs

You only do the initial elmination trial for 3 weeks and then week by week you add ONE new ingredient.  A friend of mine who took her dog to Cornell started with white potato and peas.  For a few weeks -- even months, it is *not* a big deal for it not to be balanced.  Not when you are trying to diagnose. 

Really, only 3 weeks? I thought you had to do something like 8-12 weeks before everything was truly out of their system before you added things back in.  See, good for you to go back to the basics with me

calliecritturs

But honestly?  Right now I think truly your critical problem is figuring out what's causing the vomiting.  And I don't think it's allergies.  I could be real wrong -- but it's debilitating.

Of course that's our main priority -- he was OK last night, he wasn't happy with the down-the-throat pill, but after an hour or so he calmed down without vomiting.  I'm waiting until DH gets up to feed him this morning, I don't want to feed him and head off to work with DH still sleeping since I want someone to watch him. 

I think the blood work should only take a day or two, right?  We had it drawn Sat so I should hear today or tomorrow, I'm thinking, and then we'll keep chipping away at that mystery.  I won't do anything until we ascertain it isn't GI bugs or pancreatitis or the like.

I certainly hope the bubble on his toe isn't anything else to add to this mix.  vet wasn't sure if it was a broken nail and some quick was exposed, or something more like a tumor. We'll deal with it, whatever it is, but I'm just hoping that's nothing so I don't have to worry about tumors AND vomiting AND allergies, all at once

NicoleS

calliecritturs

You only do the initial elmination trial for 3 weeks and then week by week you add ONE new ingredient.  A friend of mine who took her dog to Cornell started with white potato and peas.  For a few weeks -- even months, it is *not* a big deal for it not to be balanced.  Not when you are trying to diagnose. 

Really, only 3 weeks? I thought you had to do something like 8-12 weeks before everything was truly out of their system before you added things back in.  See, good for you to go back to the basics with me

I had to do it for quite a bit longer than that. I want to say at least 6 weeks to see any results. I worked with my derm vet and Mordonna (sp?) to come up with a diet. I used pork and buckwheat. To our knowledge, Sassy hadn't ever had pork, but since she was a rescue, it was hard to be sure. It ended up not telling us a whole lot. She got better but not amazingly so. She had such a bad infection at the time, was on a ton of antibiotics and I think her poor body was spinning out of control. Still, I think it's a worthwhile thing to try and as Callie said, there's no concern about it being unbalanced for that period of time.

NicoleS

I'm going to look more into elimination diets -- what other protein sources can I use? I never would have guessed chick peas.... or maybe fish?  How would I know which carb to try, is potato a good one, or is there something else less likely to be an allergen?  Do I need a carb or can I just feed a veggie?  I know it's not balanced, but how much protein do you feed in ratio to carb?  As concerned about cost as I was before, it can't be more expensive than the z/d.  And I would feel better about it long-term, just because I can make treats and such to go with it rather than really hard, really dry kibble and that's it.

  Like Cathy, I worked with a derm vet  and she had me follow an elimination diet for 8 weeks before challenging with other foods; 3 weeks isn't enough time. You can start with a 50/50 mix of a protein source and carb and adjust as necessary according to his stool. Use any carb and protein  that he hasn't had before. For veggies you can use white or sweet potatoes. If you use rice, white rice is more digestible. Even though the diet isn't balanced, Sammy will get some nutrients from the cooked food. Red meat is a good source of minerals, enriched rice is a good source of b vitamins and iron, and sweet potatoes are a good source of vitamin A. Both white and sweet potatoes are a good source of potassium. Health food stores carry grains like buckwheat, amaranth and quiona; they are nutritious as well. It can cost more than you think; Jessie is on a cooked diet for chronic pancreatitis; she needs 800 calories a day. Her diet is white rice and ground turkey and costs about $22 a week, not counting the supplements to balance it. So, it may not be cheaper than the z/d, which is a balanced diet. Keeping my fingers crossed for great blood work and a good result from the biopsy.

I don't have long to fill in everything now, but just a quick update --

Vet called about blood work -- looks like his pancreas levels are "elevated" -- apparently the spec cpl gives a value, and anything above 400 is a yes for pancreatitis and below 200 is a no.  Sammy has a 392.  They're sending me copies of the blood work so I can look at more specifics later on.  So, I now have the wonderful task of trying to figure out what to do about allergies AND pancreatitis.

I got the impression from my vet that he really hasn't had to deal with dogs with this before, so probably looking for a new vet.  We want one closer to us anyway, especially if he will need more frequent care.... and also look into TCVM.

Not sure if this is the usual thing, but he said that there is sometimes a bacterial proponent to pancreatitis, so he's putting Sammy on antibiotics.  I totally can't remember which one, or if he even said, but I was more concerned about the rest of it!  Apparently though in humans, the doctors at work say you wouldn't think of putting someone on antibiotics? 

Janice, did you work with a nutritionist for the custom diet for Jessie?  I'm thinking that would be my best bet if we do something other than the z/d (which apparently is low-fat enough (14%)).  Sam eats roughly 700 calories a day, or did on the last kibble he ate.  The vet wanted to put Sammy on some special super low fat food but he couldn't remember the name of it off the top of his head   First, I need to figure out the allergies before we could do custom, though.... it's all a mess, I haven't gotten it all straight in my head just yet.

To top it off, today at work has been so discombobulated (sp?) that I don't know if I'm coming or going there either. 

calliecritturs

But honestly, you get dicey with the word 'allergy' -- *generally* an allergen will provoke an anaphylactic reaction in the body -- usually that causes breathing distress, skin distress -- but I wouldn't say vomiting was a typical allergy response even to food.  I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying it's not typical.

And sometimes it's a learned reaction -- if you eat something once that made you violently ill -- just the smell of that thing, or the taste of it, can make you vomit again. 

Emma is actually, clinically, immune-response allergic to eggs. If I'm remembering right, they were 3 or 4 on a scale of 0-6. She just throws up anything with egg in it, though. I don't recall her ever having hives from eggs, but she's had hives so many zillion times, I wouldn't remember. She does look nauseated if you set eggs in front of her, and won't eat them, plain. Could be like her Aunt Callie's pancakes

The vet probably wanted to put him on W/D. That's what a lot of the Schnauzers at the practice where I worked were on. W/D only, because of pancreatitis issues. It's also, roughly, worth it's weight in gold

I had Emma's allergy test run through my regular vet, and sent to VARL, in California. It was a blood test, which is supposed to be less reliable, but it was a great thing, to start with. I still did an elimination diet (still working on testing all the 0 response foods), since Emma obviously has food issues. Since she does so well on the Z/D, I've decided not to switch. I do add some extra protein and fat, for her, but Z/D is the base of her diet (it's not so bad, at 1 cup a day, LOL).

NicoleS

They're sending me copies of the blood work so I can look at more specifics later on. 

Pancreatitis doesn't have to be life-long -- and YES YES in dogs typically it IS bacterial in some way.

In fact, even my *holistic TCVM VET* slapped Billy on antibiotics quicker than stink when he showed up with it almost 2 years ago (it was right after he came off the immune-suppressors post-IMHA.)

Look on the bloodwork to see if the amylase and lipase -- one will about exactly double the other in pancreatitis - I don't remember which is higher, but man, they were literally in a 2:1 relationship.  Both my holistic AND regular vet agreed immediately on that one (they did no other test -- that ALONE and he was pretty much asymptomatic at that point and they STILL both wanted to treat him!!  2 different practices)

Billy was on antibiotics right off -- that and a bit lower fat intake (and some pancreas friendly additions).

Remember "atitis" at the end of a work MEANS "inflammed".  Literally pancreatitis means "inflammation of the pancreas" and usually it's assumed it needs antibiotics.  But that's exactly why the canned tripped his trigger so bad -- it was JUST fatty enough to punch that reject button.

Also -- I don't know if you give him any dairy -- but *DON'T* -- that's a mega no no with pancreatitis -- there's something about dairy that will turn most dogs green.  Even Billy -- my mega dairy boy was saying "no thanks Mom" to dairy -- that was my ONLY signal something was seriously wrong at the time. (But then - this is Billy - Mr. I LOVE dairy!!)

Get the pancreas under control first -- that's going to whack everything out.

Now - the other thing with Billy was (and the symptoms are almost darned similar) -- when the bloodwork came back it looked like Billy had BOTH pancreatitis and hepatitis.  His liver was all imflamed too.  And his skin was HORRIBLE at the time.  But the antibiotics kinda brought it all back to level.  But if the liver values are off, it doesn't matter WHAT you do with the skin -- it's not gonna clear up -- it's as bad as thyroid problems at screwing the skin up.  And it doesn't have to be ALL the liver values -- with Tink and Billy last spring it was just the AST and ALT that were off and it was E-NUFF to cause problems.  Once I got the liver problems satisfied -- the skin cleared on both of them.

Thanks, Callie.

Is there a way to keep him on z/d and lower the fat by adding .... something?  I know it ruins the "allergy free" portion of it, but if I added sweet potato or something would that help lower the fat?  What's "low fat" ENOUGH?  The vet couldn't really answer that. 

Sam's on amoxicillin and cipro for now.

I think I'm gonna call the vet back today .... I was gonna wait a day or two until the biopsy results came in to switch to a new one.  So far,  no more vomiting though

You'd have to cut the food a LOT.  Half maybe?  And I wouldn't use the canned (which was the trigger, right?) at all until he stops reacting and completely finishes the meds.  then you'd have to add in *really* slowly.  Go to something really no-fat like mashed potato and/or the sweet potato.  Mash it well but don't use milk to mash it -- just water or broth.

I have to use some canned, but I got the z/d, which, surprisingly (not!) has very little protein, or fat.  It's 2.3% fat whereas the canned I was using before was 4%, so at least that's about half.  It was something like $20 for 6 cans, so I'm being much more sparing in my use of it for pills, but since he can't have certain pills together, he's getting 7 pills, at 4 times throught the day.  I'm decent at 'pilling' him, but not that good!

I'm not sure if I should stop the z/d altogether and feed him a low-fat homecooked diet (can i do an elimination diet that's also low-fat?  would have to look up some nutritional values on that one).  Otherwise, the allergies would be secondary to the other issues.  I don't want to make anything worse by keeping him on the z/d since it's 14% fat (the ultra is 14%; the z/d "low allergen" version is 19% I believe -- for anyone out there who might be reading).

If I don't hear about his biopsy results today I'll try calling them this afternoon anyway....

If you did an elmination diet of like mashed potato and either peas or chick peas there would be pretty much no fat at all. 

Mix up baby food to put his pills in -- again you can use a veggie (like even sweet potato) and that would only increase your total intake of the foods by 3 basic foods -- altho you may find he's hungry enough when he doesn't feel nauseus that he'll take the pills just in food.

Give him a probiotic but use a store bought one (not yogurt -- not even fat-free -- dairy *really* does a number on pancreatitis) -- NOW has Gr-8-dophilos that is good or just get one at a health store -- just get a kid's acidolpholus.  But with those two antibiotics he will NEED one twice a day if you can give it (particularly as yeasty as he's been).

He's actually had both potato and peas before (but very limited on the peas, I tossed them in a few times when I tried homecooking for a month but he never really liked them), but I don't think sweet potato -- are they different enough where I could use sweet potato even if he's had potato?  Elimination diets are tough to come up with novel things.  Chick peas would be new, though.  I remember you mentioned them  

I had not wanted to do the baby food since if we're using the z/d for an allergy food, I didn't want to add anything.  There are only a few novel things out there for me to try, and I didn't want to use one of them now for pills and have nothing left if we do need to switch to a "real" elimination diet in the future.  Not sure yet about continuing with z/d or starting a low-fat elimination anyway.  Probably going to get into a new vet before we change too much, me thinks.  Our current vet was very anti me doing anything other than rx foods. Hopefully we can get in soon.

He needs SOME fat, right?  Although the vet wanted it to nearly nothing you have to have at least a TINY bit to survive?  or short term, that doesn't matter so much either? 

Do I give probiotics opposite the antibiotics?  That'll be a bit tough since he gets the antibiotics at 6am, 7:30 am (to separate the two as the pharmacist recommended so they don't bind each other and are more effective) and again at 6pm and 8 pm.  We're gone from 7:30-4:30 or 8-5 or so.  I could give him one right before bed if a few hours is OK, but probably not middle of the day.  Would it be better to give probiotics a few hours before or a few hours after antibiotics?

NicoleS

Our current vet was very anti me doing anything other than rx foods. Hopefully we can get in soon.

Quite honestly, if it were me, I'd stay with the rx food for right now. I assume you can use that even with the pancreatitis, right? I know you want to do what's right but you can go crazy trying to do too much at once. If he's on the meds, it's not truly an elimination diet and you can't use any supplements while doing a true elimination diet. I tried doing it while giving antibiotics but had to wonder if it was effective. You hate to waste your time if you're not able to do it right. So, maybe consider waiting to finish all the meds before heading down the homecooked elimination diet. Have you fed fish before? I was told that sweet potatoes are higher glucose and since sugars can be a problem if you're dealing with yeast, so I went with the buckwheat. It's cheap and you can get a big bag at the health food store and just cook it for a long time in a slow cooker. Then you'd just need to think of a protein. I know how overwhelming this all is, so try to take it slow, take deep breaths and start writing down things like foods eaten previously, meds, supplements and signs and symptoms you notice. It'll help when you meet with the vet and especially if you get a consult with a derm vet.

Thanks for the reminder about the meds!  He will always (for the reasonable forseeable future, anyway) be on the one anxiety med... we may try to wean him off in the next 4-6 months since he's been doing sooooooo much better in the new house, but I would want to wean suuuper slowly (we weaned him before and then he ended up back on them in a few months after he broke his teeth on his crate).  The new setup in a house and not apt has been amazing for him, but I'm going way slower than the vet suggested if we wean again.

But, definitely not with that, two antibiotics and the pepcid.  Good catch.  Totally would have missed the meds.

You're right about changing too much at once -- but the z/d is 14% fat, and from what I understand, that's too high.  The vet didn't give me a number, but basically said anything commercial is way too high.  I don't believe that, but I think something in the range of 8-10% would be better, from what I've been reading.

I would finish this bag of the z/d (unless a new vet says otherwise), and he'll be finishing it right around the time he finishes his antibiotics and such.  I don't recall him having fish before, and that was suggested by one the vet techs from the animal lab here at work as well. Apparently Wellness has a nice Simple formula that's fish based that's only 12% fat, I might look into food like that for the future as well, once we get it all straightened out.

 Thank you guys for all the help and support along the way -- I have the feeling it's just the beginning and I'll be here asking a lot more of those of ou who have dealt with this!