vomiting immediately after eating? - update page 6

I'll call around, then, thanks!

They looked it up at the vet's for me, and the sheet said 363 cal/cup... I can't find it ANYWHERE on the bag itself.  I asked them specifically, since the vet recommended an 8lb bag, and if it was low-cal that would last us only maybe a week!  How weird.  Where did you get the 254/cup?  I'll find out soon enough how much Sammy thinks he needs :)  I noticed it was only 14% protein, too. 

It seems, somewhat, that his vomiting was a combination of kibble and canned, but not either alone, as best I could tell.  So if I'm not feeding that part of it, wouldn't surprise me if he didn't vomit, but I wouldn't know what exactly the solution was.  That and the pill thing are why I would like some canned, and since I'm already out a small fortune, a couple cans won't kill us.

http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/products/productDetails.hjsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441760430

Buuut that's the Ultra. I just realized, the Low Allergen is much higher calorie (363). Maybe that's what you have? 

 http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/products/productDetails.hjsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441760718

Annnd, Emma could eat that. If it's cheaper, I'll buy it, next time. If it's the same price, it's still cheaper, because it's an extra 100 calories a cup!

Sammy's mom-Do you have a Petsmart with a Banfield in it near you?  In a pinch, I've had my vet fax over a prescription to them so I could get it there. 

Or, if you have one of those 24 hr ER vets nearby if they have it they sometimes will sell a couple of cans to get you thru. 

Hope Sammy is feeling better soon. 

Lori

Petsmarts website locator says I do, but I don't recall ever seeing anything inside that look like a clinic.  We have a 24 hr vet not far from me, I can try there as well, it's close to the petsmart.

Jennie, I just looked and I do have the Ultra. Apparently the folks at the vet's office weren't paying attention when they were showing me the information!  Drat.  That means I will be feeding more, but hopefully I can still get 4 weeks out of it.  Unless we see something good, I probably won't stick with it longer than that.  If I try other things and he goes backwards, I can always go back if need be.  I could do a lot for $4/lb when it doesn't even have that many calories!

I don't seem to have any good, holistic vets around, that are easy to find online.  There's one from Callie's TCVM locator about an hour away, but when I contacted them last year, it was a ton of money, and they wanted to do some sort of voodoo-esque like treatments.  I wasn't thrilled with them on the phone, for several hundred dollars for an initial consult.  Sure wish vets had better nutrition training... or at least a better way to differentiate seasonal and food allergies.

Do you know of a meat that IS ok?  Baby food rocks for giving pills and it's about as pure as anything and is better than cheese in any event. 

Try a VEGGIE baby food -- green beans, spinach, sweet potato, squash -- they tend to like it and those may be novel in any event.  Scoop up some in a plastic spoon and put the pill in it and let him lick it off the spoon. 

At this point, I don't know of a meat that is OK for sure -- I "assume" chicken since he was fine on it for a really long time, but that's what he's been eating so I suppose there's a possibility that he's developed an allergy to it recently?

I have a can of pumpkin, but he's not a big fan of it by itself.  I just don't want to "mess up" anything that we could get from feeding him gold... errr.. allergy food () by giving him something else, hence why I could use canned.  one can can last a good ten days if I only give enough for the pills, if I can get it somewhere closer.

Not sure what to make of it, but he vomited again this morning.  like, $3 worth of food, LOL.  So not sure if him vomiting an allergy-free food means that it's not a food intolerance causing vomiting, or if it just means that two meals of a new thing isn't enough to tell.

I'm thinking seasonal allergies, and something physically wrong rather than food at this point, but I would hate to let my feelings sway this one way or another and miss something important. 

I've been up against the wall with the food allergies too, so here's a thought. Maybe take some of the new kibble and add some hot water to it. Let it soften, smoosh it with a fork to the consistency of canned. You could either do it for every feeding or make a big enough batch to keep in the fridge for each meal.

I'd posted not long ago that we're going thru a rough time with Sassy right now too. I thought it was due to the change of the NB Duck & Potato formula, so we switched her to Venison & Sweet Potato. After a few wks, she seemed a little better but still very itchy. I called her derm vet on Friday and she said that they're seeing a real increase in problems right now. I was sorry to hear that other dogs are suffering but glad to know that it's not just Sassy. We're going to tweak her meds for a week and see if that helps.

I know how terribly frustrating (and expensive) it can be to narrow this stuff down, so I feel for you. I hope that the change in food does the trick and Sammy is feeling better soon.

Thanks for the idea, I'll try that.  Can't hurt anything!  Half of me wants to make all these changes, and the other half of me wants to only change one thing at a time to narrow it down (the scientist in me!) but in the end, all that matters is that we find something that works.

Maybe we need a derm vet.  There's only one by us so hopefully they are good.  Is testing very accurate?  I've always heard it's not reliable.  I'd like to rule out something physical for the vomiting, but obviously he has itchy paws regardless.

What I think I will do, is wait for test results and get through the bag of z/d.  If we don't see any changes and the tests don't indicate anything, I'm going to try one of the kibbles that is rabbit or kangaroo or something totally exotic. At $4/lb for a lo-cal kibble, I can do way better with anything else, and it'll have more calories.  He has had duck before, since chicken soup puts about 5 protein sources in their food.  I do believe he's also had venison, although not in great amounts (variety in canned or changing a flavor of kibble).  If we see some improvement or the tests show something, then at least we'll have direction.

 Sorry that Sassy has been having troubles as well! I guess it's been a bad year for people allergies as well?  The weather here has definitely been weirder than usual...

Don't think I'm yelling here -- just trying to emphasize with limited resources here. 

NicoleS

Maybe we need a derm vet.  There's only one by us so hopefully they are good.  Is testing very accurate?  I've always heard it's not reliable.  I'd like to rule out something physical for the vomiting, but obviously he has itchy paws regardless.

SEriously -- DON'T switch foods over and over.  You create MORE intolerances that way.  When they are in **such** a state as this if it IS allergies then **EVERY SINGLE THING** simply becomes one more new potential allergen.

People think that allergies are somehow "already there".  They are *not*.  Allergies are often FORMED.  On the moment -- just because the body is too inflamed to do anything else but react.  But once the body perceives some new thing is an allergy off it goes to something nearly permanent.

That's why REALLY the only solution to food allergies is a real, true elmination diet.  If you look at the can/bag the Z/D is FULL of allergens.  It's just simply so incredibly hydrolized that the body can't tell what it is (which always makes me question how much nutrition they actually get).  But that's why it works.

But it's not seasonal allergies making him vomit == that's pretty well impossible.  Atopy doesn't cause vomiting -- itching, inflammation of the mucus membranes yes. 

Blood testing (and even the *** testing) really aren't wonderful for food allergies anyway ... and testing an animal that is in such a heightened state of allergy alert can give you completely false readings (because right now **everything** is an irritant). 

Seriously -- I know it may seem like a stretch but I wish you'd try TCVM.  It can honestly help you make sense out of the nonsense ... because food intolerances are truly way way *more* than just allergy or not.  There are, according to Chinese medicine (and heaven knows but Pirate's mom and I have SO seen this to be incredibly true) certain foods that will simply cause "inflammation' IF there is a potential for inflammation in the body.  If the body is looking for a place to BE inflamed it will simply jump on certain foods -- particularly certain foods fed at certain times.

Chicken is one of those inflammatory foods.  There are times of the year when Billy can eat it, LOVE it and have no problem at all with it.  Other times - I can't give him chicken or he blows out in inflammation.  It's NOT an allergy ... it's simply an intolerance.  Rice is another biggie -- as can be most any common grain (oatmeal is another I have to be careful with.  That's why right now I'm trying to not give anybuddy ANY grain at all. 

The initial consult with a TCVM vet is pricey but they spend about 2 hours with you and it includes treatment (and no testing usually, at all).  Thereafter follow-ups are usually just a bit more than your basic vet visit (but no tests).  He might need herbs (there are a BUNCH that really can calm down the skin but usually they aren't pricey). 

Believe it or not you are in an area with more TCVM vets than you'd believe (because you're an ag area).  There's honestly a reason why there's such an explosion in using TCVM in the veteirnary community (and why a lot of vet schools are giving it a LOT of merit). 

But -- trust me, it is NOT seasonal allergies making him vomit.  He may well have allergies, I'm not doubting that.  But this just doesn't sound like an allergy to me.  It's too consistent in a string of times.

I can think of a lot of physical things it could be -- including a reaction to his medicine.  (and you'd be surprised -- TCVM may be able to help you with that as well) 

The only other thing you could do -- and it's a more scientific approach, is to literally bite the bullet and do a TRUE elmination diet.  It does NOT have to be balanced -- they never are.  You can do it without meat at all.  Something like white potato and chick peas or something -- using a legume for protein. 

Rather than going to a derm vet -- why not take him to the state vet school.  Pennsylvania's got a good one.  And you're not all that far from Cornell either.  Derm vets tend to be excruciatingly expensive -- AND the testing that's cheap is not conclusive and the other testing is pricey.  A vet school is usually far cheaper for all of that.

I honestly think tho, it's something physical -- if there is some strange obstruction (I've seen dogs have all sorts of weird stuff in them) -- it seems SO much to be a change in 'consistency' that triggers part of this that it may simply be that when something *more* is added and it causes the stomach to roll differently in how it is rolling/processing the food THAT could trigger vomiting.

I had a friend who had a very similar problem -- she finally went to my *regular* vet (who isn't a TCVM vet but he's the best diagnostician I know) -- and when he palpated the abdomen in just his normal exam he said "hmmmm" ... He then rolled the dog over to palpate further and said "HOW long has this gone one?"  She said "three months".  Dr B said "Does he like balls??"  She said "He LOVES them -- he has a million".  Dr. B said "make that a million MINUS ONE".  He put her fingers on a bump.  Then he said "we need to do surgery -- NOW."  An hour later he put a denuded but WHOLE tennis ball in her hand.  (he washed it first).

It simply rattled around in his stomach (a weim -- not a small dog, but not huge either) and when he'd get into a certain position after eating -- it would apparently roll the ball to just the right place in his stomach and it would trigger either immediate vomiting or soon after.  Other times it didn't bother at all -- it all depended on how the dog moved after he ate and exactly what he ate and how fast.  It appeared pretty much random.

I felt and still feel like you do about making a whole bunch of changes at once. If things improve, you're kind of left scratching your head over which change helped. Been there a bunch of times myself. We did the blood test for allergies with Sassy. My derm vet feels that both work well and we couldn't get Sassy off antihistamines long enough to do the skin testing. What it told us was that she's allergic to a bunch of things but molds are one of the highest, so winter is usually the worst for her, especially for foot infections. The testing was specific to things that grow in our area, and she tested way high on a bunch of those things too. We use Atopica and have had excellent results with it. You might want to consider at least having a consult with a derm vet and see what they recommend.

I'd thought I'd throw this out there.  Willow has issues with dry food.  She cannot eat it or she gets sick--maybe not every time, but pretty often.  So, she gets all canned.  I'd be curious to see what happens if he got only canned. 

Honestly, though, not trying to scare you but the fact that he vomited again is worrying me.  If it were me, I'd be getting that x-ray sooner rather than later--but I tend to be very over protective.  I agree with Callie it's not allergies making him vomit like that. 

Hope he's OK, poor guy.

Lori

 Emma will puke a food with eggs, every. Single. Time. Is that not a normal response to an allergen/irritant?

  Along with food allergies, z/d is used for dogs with sensitive stomachs because it's easy to digest, so it's a good choice in Sammy's situation. However, changing foods cold turkey is naver a good idea unless it's absolutely necessary. If you're going to do that, fasting him for 24 hours first may help. It will allow his digestive system to calm down and may help him adjust to the z/d. Also,when Jessie had an attack of pancreatitis, my vet recommended fasting her for 24 hours to rest the pancreas before starting her on a low fat diet. Be aware that a standard blood test can be unreliable for pancreatitis. Your vet needs to do a Spec cPL;   http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/laboratory/speccpl/

NicoleS

Maybe we need a derm vet.  There's only one by us so hopefully they are good.  Is testing very accurate?  I've always heard it's not reliable. 

 Actually testing done by a derm vet is very reliable;  Jessie has had very good results. A derm vet does skin testing which is more reliable than testing the blood. But, that's not likely to be the cause of Sammy's vomiting.

NicoleS

What I think I will do, is wait for test results and get through the bag of z/d.  If we don't see any changes and the tests don't indicate anything, I'm going to try one of the kibbles that is rabbit or kangaroo or something totally exotic. 

 I would suggest that you do a very bland, low fat, home cooked diet first, such as rice cooked until it's very soft and mixed with lean boiled meat like ground turkey or lean ground beef. You wouldn't need to worry about a balanced diet if it was for a few weeks. If that doesn't settle Sammy's stomach, it's very unlikely that any kibble would. I'll be sending healing tummy vibes; give him some ear scritches for me.

jennie_c_d

Is that not a normal response to an allergen/irritant?

Sure to something she can't tolerate. 

Maybe I wasn't specific enough.  There's a difference betweeen an allergy to something you consume and **atopy**.  Atopic allergies are from the air or environment.  Those don't cause vomiting. 

But honestly, you get dicey with the word 'allergy' -- *generally* an allergen will provoke an anaphylactic reaction in the body -- usually that causes breathing distress, skin distress -- but I wouldn't say vomiting was a typical allergy response even to food.  I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying it's not typical.

And sometimes it's a learned reaction -- if you eat something once that made you violently ill -- just the smell of that thing, or the taste of it, can make you vomit again. 

My husband and I just got back from lunch at Bob Evans.  I **FORGOT** they serve buttermilk pancakes rather than regular ones.  ME ... **I** forgot.  I just wanted something different today and ordered pancakes not thinking I don't tolerate buttermilk.  She zoomed that plate in front of me and I almost lost my tummy at the table.  At this point, just the SMELL of them provokes a violent reaction in me.  But I felt so bad -- it was my own foolish mistake.

But as I've aged I've become the QUEEN of allergic reactions to food -- basil, chipotle, olive leaf ... they will break me out in hives almost immediately -- painful, oozing hives that take WEEKS and a ton and a half of benedryl to get rid of.  I'm going to have to be really careful with chipotle -- cos the next time (given my increasing reaction to it) I could wind up in the hospital. 

My point is that both are equally nasty and rotten -- but allergies DO differ from an intolerance.  An intolerance is very likely to be the culprit of something like Emma's egg reaction (but remembering also that eggs are **often** an allergen, in both dogs and people that's surely not a 'given';). 

It could simply be her gut, for some reason, can't tolerate them and it pushes the reject button.  In Emma's case it could seriously be liver-related (because liver toxins shunt to the brain ... so if it triggers a toxic reaction in her liver that would push the reject button on her tummy in a heartbeat!!)

Wow, lots to read.  I probably need to go back and read it all, again.

This might be a little jumpy, but some comments on the above --

There's really only a few people listed on the TCVM website, Callie, that aren't listed under equine.  I don't know if you recall, but last year you and I chatted a bit about it when he had those weird oozy ulcer things on his paws (which I don't think could have been bites, as we first thought) -- and the one tcvm vet that's more recommended around here only has very weird hours and is about an hour away, which is rather difficult due to my job.  I can take a day off but no matter which day I do, at least one of the doctors gives me a hard time since somehow it inconveniences them regardless.  The other vet had better hours, but was associated with a 'regular' practice and when you and I discussed, there were some things that just didn't sound amazing about it, so I opted not to do it last year.  I went as far as to make an appt, have them send me all the paperwork, but I canceled it since he was all better by the time the appt rolled around months later.  Their allergy testing was a sort of voodoo as well, not skin or blood related, but rather vials of things that I would hold, and touch Sammy and we would see if that caused a reaction?  Something like that. I am too much of a scientist to trust that without actually seeing it.

UPenn probably does have a great vet school, but they are rather far away, about 5 hours.  Cornell is about 6.  I could try getting him in over christmas when we're in buffalo but that's still about 3 hours or so.  Not impossible, but perhaps hard to schedulem if we're only there for certain days and around a holiday.....  that's worth a call though.  Who or what deptartment would I try calling?  Is it something we would go there for, or have our vet send samples?  I've tried looking on cornell's website and it's somewhat confusing to me. Sounds like we could just have our vet send serum, actually?

I wasn't able to get any z/d canned today being sunday so I put the pills down the back of his throat and rubbed until he swallowed and it's not treating him well.  will rectify that tomorrow for sure, since he's been sort of snorting funny so I'm keeping a very close eye on him for the moment.  The z/d kibbles are incredibly hard, I stepped on them with shoes and they didn't crush so I figure that isn't helping him either, so I whacked a bunch with a meat hammer to break them down a bit.  They are pretty big kibbles, too.  Hopefully that and adding water are helping.

The vet is doing the spec cpl testing for pancreas, so hopefully the results will be in shortly, along with the fecal.  And, the biopsy of his toe that is unrelated but still important.   I definitely made sure to ask for the special test for that, since I knew those values hadn't been part of any blood panel he's had done before.

Our vet at least, said that the vomiting could be a reaction to something in the food -- but the fact that he vomits so quickly after eating, rather than digesting and THEN vomiting makes me wonder as well. But, as mentioned, the z/d is as much for the general tummy upset as allergies so we'll see....

I, too, am thinking more of something physical.  The blood tests should be back soon and if they don't show anything, then we'll be in for more tests and xrays and such.  The vet, at least, didn't feel that concerned with it and actually suggested waiting on blood work until we tried the fancy z/d for a few weeks.   I wasn't willing to wait a few weeks, that's for sure! 

I'm going to look more into elimination diets -- what other protein sources can I use? I never would have guessed chick peas.... or maybe fish?  How would I know which carb to try, is potato a good one, or is there something else less likely to be an allergen?  Do I need a carb or can I just feed a veggie?  I know it's not balanced, but how much protein do you feed in ratio to carb?  As concerned about cost as I was before, it can't be more expensive than the z/d.  And I would feel better about it long-term, just because I can make treats and such to go with it rather than really hard, really dry kibble and that's it.

The vet was NOT happy when I suggested something like that the other day -- he didn't want to feed something "unbalanced" -- but then again, they do push the rx diets.  I just couldn't think of a protein he hadn't had, but obviously I don't think outside the box far enough.

The more you guys talk about allergy testing, the more appealing it sounds since having some sort of answer -- at least to define if it's food or environment, or both --would be faster and cheaper than all this experimenting.  Just more research to do!

Thanks for all the food for thought, I'm gonna read back it through everything more carefully and see if I have a few minutes tomorrow to do some calling around.