On watch for epilepsy

not familiar with your breed...is there a marker test or some way they know this case was inherited and not simply idiopathic? IOW did the breeder know some of the lines carried it so if it popped up it's likely that and not another reason?

Looking to be ejuhbucayted LOL.

waiting for lightning to strike is an appropriate term -- the things that seem to trigger seizures in dogs are pretty much the same (and more) than seizures in humans.  Chemicals are a biggie, vaccines, SCENTS (biggie in dogs), stuff that goes thru the skin, flashing lights and repetitive sounds.

 Minimizing exposure can help not get it started.  Chemicals seems to be a biggie -- from things like shampoos (believe it or not just the plain old normal Hartz shampoo -- not even a flea shampoo but just plain dog shampoo -- has apparently triggered TONS of seizures and is known to be problematic -- but it's often not identified until too late) to flea meds, etc.

Pirate seizes from topicals (including Frontline which he'd been on for many moons), and scents like residue left from prior bathings (he was seizing after she bathed him at work using her own shampoo she brought from home).  so sometimes it's just sheer excitement/stress coupled with other stuff.

Kee had petit mal seizures CONSTANTLY.  She literally was living life IN a compulsive seizure all the time.  She doesn't at all any more.  Her's I fear came from early battering and neglect. 

Honestly, find a good TCVM vet -- I'm astonished -- there are now like 4-5 pages of them in the Chi Institute listing http://www.tcvm.com

If I recall you're somewhere near Ithaca?  Most are obviously up near the tracks near Albany, and Long Island, but there's a surprising number near Rochester, and over near Buffalo (the Buffalo ones are outer suburbs/again ag areas).  There's even one in Olean, which surprised the heck outa me.  A couple actually up in the rough "Thousand Island" area.

I'm from western NY (from Olean, originally, altho my folks are in Jamestown now).  But holler if I can help in any way.  I tell ya -- the TCVM absolutely IS AWESOME for seizures.  Between the Chinese herbs (which are darned near as strong as Pheno but have ZERO side effects that are negative) to the acupuncture, it is absolutely an amazing help.

But cultivating a relationship with one, and finding out who is actually comfortable with seizure work could make life a heck of a lot easier for you when/**big hairy IF** you need one.

Sadly, there is no gene test at this point. There is research being done, but the marker hasn't been found.

Her brother had two seizers (so a little cluster), and after the first we were trying to figure out if it was idiopathic (he'd been at a hot indoor agility trail and neighbors recently had their lawn treated I think), but after the second that was enough to know we can't take any risks (it's a huge problem in the breed) and everyone should be S/N. The neuro vet felt that her brother's case was very likely IE, so that sealed the deal more.

There are several other cases I know of and she shares a common grandfather with at least 1 or 2 of them. Neither her sire or dam has ever produced it before and they each had several litters on the ground before her.The suspicion is that it takes the right paring of BIN  and GO to get the BINGO (epilepsy).
 

 I believe that the most common time for epilepsy to surface is between 3 and 5 yo; don't know if that's helpful or not.  My parents' dog, Oreo, was diagnosed with idiopathic epilepsy at 3yo and lived to 14yo.  Her death was unrelated to the epilepsy (she had been seizure free for about 4 years at her death), so it's certainly not a death sentence and rarely seems to effect quality of life once you get it controlled. 

Oreo did best on a limited ingredient diet, potassium bromide, and Vitamin E supplementation.  Her seizures were sparked by stress and certain chemicals (a certain preservative would always trigger them we discovered after feeding her applesauce!) - she had major grand mal clusters until we found the right balance of things.  She did go into status (constant seizures) once, but recovered when dosed with valium at the vets.  The only side effect we could tie to the seizures was some impaired memory after a particularly bad round at age 6 or so.

In my research when she was first diagnosed, I heard great things about alternative treatments, including permanent acupuncture.  There's a ton of great info out there.

As far as keeping a potential epi dog safe, the biggies are making sure that when left alone they can't access tight spots or stairs and that they are kept separate from other animals - during seizures many dogs lose coordination and thus are at increased risk of injury and some dogs will go after a seizuring dog.  As long as a human is around these issues are obviously much less concerning and many dogs live a very normal life.  I even know one dog that has epilepsy that runs agility! :)

That's a hard row to hoe...from a breeders standpoint. It sounds like the right thing to do...just drastic since there is no test, so you're also going to catch normals in the s/n net, I completely understand why the net has to be cast tho! What a hard choice...because then the overall gene pool gets smaller bit by bit...and that might actually exacerbate the problem. Argh genetics are so frustrating!

It sounds like h*ll...as a breeder that would make me crazy. I am very sorry this has occured. Are they at all close to a marker for your breed? I am not sure any breed has something for epilepsy yet...

Thanks guys. The closest Chi Insti. vet is in East Syracuse about an hour and a half away, so that's not the end of the world although it will require time off from work to go. Would I just call and make an appointment to tell them what I know and that we're trying to prevent anything from every being an issue? 

 They just started cross referencing the Aussie research with other breeds and in other countries, because they aren't close as far I know. It's just grown like wildfire in Aussies which is what is really scary and accounts for the S/N everyone strategy at this point. As a breeder, it's just one of those scary things you pray doesn't pop up.

I am hoping that we can get a bunch of the dogs Luna is half related to to donate blood for the research along with Mom and Dad and the affected brother.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

I am hoping that we can get a bunch of the dogs Luna is half related to to donate blood for the research along with Mom and Dad and the affected brother.

That would be great. I know the studies move more quickly the more donors they get from as wide a pool as possible. Best of luck and hoping Luna doesn't ever show any signs.

Denise, a really good book is "Canine Epilepsy" by Carolyn Levine.  It's easy to understand and gives a ton of info.

My understanding also is that there is no test for inherited epilepsy, but certain breeds are more prone to it.  You may recall I went through this with Bear, who was Lab/Border Collie mix and both breeds are highly prone to it.  He was a shelter dog and a mutt at that, so there is no telling if his parents had it.

Yes, I would think you could make an appointment with a TCVM vet and tell them you are hoping to prevent seizures.  Honestly, though, they won't know any more than you do if your dog will seize.  They could look at her and do various things - acupuncture, adjust diet, etc. in an attempt to balance her system, though I'm not sure if she never seizes that it would be certain because you did preventative or that she was never going to seize anyway. 

I wish you the best.  It is not an easy row to hoe.  Sometimes it is very manageable, other times it is not.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

Thanks guys. The closest Chi Insti. vet is in East Syracuse about an hour and a half away, so that's not the end of the world although it will require time off from work to go. Would I just call and make an appointment to tell them what I know and that we're trying to prevent anything from every being an issue? 

I actually did some emailing for you -- I was hoping for one awesome in herbology for you (and that might *not* show with just a certification).  E-mail me and I'll tell you how I typically suggest someone find a vet -- but I'm at work so I can't take the time to type it out right now.  Did you do the zip code search or state? 

These folks tend to get a bit specialized -- and it depends on how experienced they are as well.  Mostly it has to do with what they've got experience in -- and you want to make sure they are REALLY into TCVM as their whole practice (not just someone who "also does acupuncture" but they're on staff at some big mega vet as their token holistic vet).  I'll see if I get any further response -- and I can *always* ask Dr. DiNatale for you (if you look under "faculty" you'll see her -- she's taught with Dr. Xie for years now).  She doesn't always know everyone (even tho she teaches -- she may deal with hundreds of vets a year) ... but sometimes if I offer her two names she can say "Hmmm, use this one ... NOT that one" or maybe "Hmm, so and so is more experienced -- I'd use them for something like seizures". 

I'm sorry to hear about Luna's brother and I hope Luna doesn't start having seizures.  Just wanted to add my experience with a Lab who lived to be 13 yrs old with epilepsy.  Her seizures were well controlled with potassium bromide.   Her first seizure was at age two and once we had it controlled she was an active, happy dog for the rest of her life.  I know not everyone is so lucky but I wanted to share a relatively good experience.

Sending you good thoughts.

My best friend's Border Collie/Black Lab mix has epilepsy. They can't tell if it is IE or idiopathic because they adopted her from the shelter at the young age of 6 months. She is now three years old had her first seizure 3 months ago. She has had 3 since then and only one was very bad. She was bleeding out of her mouth and VERY VERY lethargic afterwards so they rushed her to the emergency vet at 1:00 in the morning. She was diagnosed with epilpesy and now she is on the medicine to make her a lot better and hasnt had a seizure since. She is a very happy, healthy dog! Good Luck to Luna and her brother!

sharismom

though I'm not sure if she never seizes that it would be certain because you did preventative or that she was never going to seize anyway. 

There's nothing to DO to actually "prevent" seizures.  There's no magic *anything*.  But you can be proactive in avoiding certain things (like certain scents, shampoos, chemicals, etc.) that may lessen the likelihood of triggering seizures.

My point in suggesting the TCVM vet is more to simply establish a relationship -- Even if it's just an evaluation (which can sometimes at least spot trouble -- without x-rays, etc. -- in places that could increase chances of something bad).  But getting that initial eval done, so that IF you then need to pursue it you've got a vet who has seen the dog HEALTHY... sometimes that's worth its weight in gold in treatment.  Because the vet knows what the standard should be for *this* dog. 

My dog was diagnosed with epilepsy almost a year ago and we've been struggling to live with this monster disease ever since. There is definately nothing you can do to prevent it if its genetic but some dogs are lucky enough to have triggers like callie mentions. Rosemary seems to be a popular trigger.

 There are still things I would suggest you do or things that I would have done differently, had I known what was about to strike!

 First, evaluate the diet. Epileptic dogs do not do well on processed food and there is plenty of anectdotle evidence that suggests when grains are eliminated, there are less seizures.

 Second, get regular bloodwork - its nice to have so you know what things looked like when everything was "normal" and in Dodger's case it alerted us to thyroid problems, prior to his first seizure.

 Third, you can never do enough research.  Vit e, b, c selenium, magnesium, melatonin, liver support, velarian root, skullcap, rescue remedy and ice packs before, during and after seizures etc... These are just a few things that many people with epileptic dogs supplement with - it helps to know in advance the dosages, which are most effective and whether you want something like rescue remedy on hand.  Also you need to think about things like: what if my dog loses bladder control during a seizure?  If she's crated she will sit in it until you are home, if she's out and about its everywhere (whether you are home or not). Also, research drugs of choice - most vets will first reach for phenobarbital - probably because it tends to start working the soonest BUT it also has some pretty unpleasant side effects, especially when dogs are first started and long-term is a concern too.  It can be very hard to get then off of it once its started - it needs to be reduced so slowly and most dogs end up staying on it and other drugs like potassium bromide, keppra, lyrica are added....  Reseasrch your choices because not all vets will know what's out there.

 Also - try and mentally prepare yourself for a seizure (although I hope it never happens!): If your dog ever seizes, do not panic (this is easier said than done)... It is crucial that you time the seizure and immediately write down what could have triggered it and what happened during the seizure.  In houses with multiple dogs, you also need to isolate the seizing dog because healthy dogs have been known to attack... Not to mention, when your dog comes out of a seizure (depending on severity) they are usually confused, hyper and HUNGRY... Its important to raise their blood sugar after a seizure so have some honey on hand (do not overfeed, I made that mistake and nearly landed my dog at the vet for bloat!).  Ice packs are your friend as your dog's temperature will skyrocket. Do not handle your dog while he/she is a seizing and when they are coming out, use your voice before you touch as some are blind for a while after. 

 I truly hope that you and your dog never have to deal with this monster.