Seizures

I don't know anything about seizures but it does seem like quite the coincidence that happens after the shampoo EVERY time.  I would be wondering the same thing you are even if it was another brand.  I hope he's OK.

He's so cute!

 Smells can DEFINITELY triggor seizures, so yes, I would think it was the shampoo. As a trigger, though, not a cause. I would never, ever use that shampoo (or anything that smelled remotely like it, or anything by the same brand, because I'm paranoid), again.

I would not start phenobarbitol after two episodes of seizures, though clustering is very serious. I would keep a journal, for a little while, and see how he does. I'd do a seizure diet (dogtorj.net talks about that).  I would support his brain, with DHA and lots of tasty, fishy things. Personally, I even *feed* brain. I get it in a tub, in the frozen section, at Harvey's. My dog did end up on phenobarbitol, but not until she was 5 1/2 years old.

losinsusan

If you bathed your dog with a new shampoo you bought and it had a grand mal seizures within 20 minutes of drying them off would you suspect the shampoo?  If you bathed them again a week later in the same shampoo and the dog had two grand mal seizures, 1st one 10 minutes after and the second one 6 hours later would you suspect the shampoo? 

Yes, shampoos can cause/trigger seizures, but so can whatever you may have cleaned the sink/tub with prior to that.  (Pirate's mom can tell you more about that -- it's happened to Pirate more than once.)

losinsusan

I am seeing a vet neurologist in 10 days and will ask her about this but I think people think I am in denial about him being epileptic.  I am not,  I just want to be sure I cover all these bases and how odd that this shampoo preceeded both events.  Thoughts please........

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE  ***DO NOT*** just put your dog on phenobarbitol -- it has severe long-term side effects and it is immediately addictive.  KBr (potassium bromide) does as well. 

Acupuncture and Chinese herbs can do SO much and **withOUT** the huge side effects.   This isn't just 'weird stuff" -- I can't emphasize this enough.  The University of Florida at Gainesville actually **teaches** acupuncture and Chinese herbology as part of it's vet school curriculum.  They *highly* recommend doing the herbs to try to stabilize and ONLY go to the drugs as an absolutely last resort.  **Just because of the long-term side effects**.

I have a seizure dog (Kee Shu) and we control hers totally with herbs and occasional accupuncture (and for her its the herbs that control it).  Pirate - Slr2meg's dog -- is a seizure dog and they put him on Pheno and he developed pancytopenia (a horrible auto-immune disease known to be triggered by pheno -- often fatal because the body kills its own platelets)

Usually seizures have "triggers" -- it can be any of the same things (light, repetitive sounds, etc.) that trigger them in humans, and beyond to scents (because dogs are SO sensitive to scent).  Epilepsy truly is NOT a huge deal, particularly if you can identify the common triggers and avoid them.

I'll be honest -- I don't use ANY doggie shampoo on my dogs, not ever.  Simply because I use a very mild hemp-based liquid soap (Dr. Bronners) that I can dilute way down.  I know I have 3 dogs who are sensitive so I don't push it. 

If you go to http://www.tcvm.com -- over on the left is a "locator" so you can plug in your state/zip code to find a certified acupuncturist near you.  TCVM = Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine -- that's simply the Eastern way -- acupuncture, herbs (and their herbs are not like ours at all -- they are very medicinal and most require the prescription of a DOM/VOM or doctor/veterinarian of oriental medicine to prescribe).  Acupuncture is becoming widely used in veterinary medicine specifically because of it's help in the areas of neurology and injury. 

Feel free to email me or Slr2meg (she's at work now and won't be around for a few more hours yet).

When Pi was seizing after baths, she actually narrowed it down to several possibles -- partly it can be the time of day, it can be the actual shampoo or some cleaner used prior to bathing.  Pi was seizing when bathed at her work.  But not when she bathed him at home (usually in the same shampoo) so she wasn't sure if it was a cleaner or something on top of the fact that he was excited because he loved going to work with her and that extra excitement may have tipped the scales.  He also seemed to be more sensitive after she used Frontline on him.

Kee's seizures aren't 'grand mal' for the most part -- but when she first came to us she literally LIVED in a world of constant petit mal seizing.  She literally was almost never "on this planet" but was lost in obsession constantly.  Her tiny little dose of herbs twice a day has changed her life.

Feel free to email me if I can give you more information or help you in any way.  I understand only too well how worried you are about this.  But pheno is not a good first answer if you can prevent it.

I would throw that Hartz junk OUT - you would have been better off with people shampoo than that junk!

Pirate was having seizures after baths, too - it could have been a number of things. Callie's post explains it really well so I'm not going to go thru it all again (I'm wiped out from work, too!!) but I second keeping a 'journal' of his seizures. The mind can be a tricky thing, so I document EVERYTHING on a Google docs page for both Pirate and Tiki. Nothing long or extensive, just a few notes and the dates and times.

Can you get some Rescue Remedy or valerian drops? RR was helpful in stopping Pirate's clusters. Also, I keep one of those 'single servings' of Haggen Daaz vanilla ice cream marked DO NOT EAT...the big seizures eat up their body's energy supply and can make them go hypoglycemic, which can trigger another seizure, and on and on, so once I know Pirate is fairly stable I'll let him lap up the ice cream. Be VERY CAREFUL with this, though - I only feel comfortable doing it because I am relatively sure that he won't vomit at all during his next seizure.

PM me if you like, about TCVM stuff or seizure stuff or whatever - I hate stupid seizures!!!

Oh thank you god that I am not crazy about the shampoo and bath as a trigger.  He is a tightly wound dog.  Nail clipping throws him way more than a bath.  During this period (last week) he has another one of his bad stomach episodes and was on just white rice and boiled hamburger.  Only like once a day was all he would take.  He also was gobbling weeds up which he never really has done much of even with his bad gut. He had vomitted bile on and off and I did see blood so I know his tummy was messed up again.  The grand mal was the most horrific thing and left my poor 16 year old son shaken so badly.  He is so in love with Dublin.  I am not to keen on the pee on the bed and couch either!  Truth be told our whole family cried for two days over this.  The vet was so quick to just flip me off with he is epileptic, take this.  Our last dog had a couple minor seizures in his life so I had become educated on it.  I knew he didn't have clusters.  I knew that I should take a breath and step back and wait and see how this progresses.  I have people at my setter forum insisting I have to start drugs asap.  I didn't feel I was ready to take what comes with the drugs.  Side effects, sedation etc.  I heard this lady I am going to see soon is great and I so hope she thinks more along the lines like I do so that I get start a plan of action on how best to handle this.  Dub's were for sure Grand mal.  Three stage with the pacing around, and so hungry afterwards.  So what do I do when he needs a bath.  I am scared.  Besides not using that product, different time of day could be hard.  He rolls in dead things and poop once in a while at the woods.  We always go in late afternoon and then of course he has to bath if he is covered in stinky things.  Then he is so tired he goes right to sleep.  Maybe do not let him sleep for an hour or so?  Take him back outside to keep him up?  The seizures were within 10 minutes of him dozing off still wet from his bath?

I agree with everyone else - ditch the shampoo and start a log. When I had my siezure pup, I was very careful to keep track of everything. One neat trick I learned was the ice pack trick:

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/icepack.htm

Two siezures does not warrent medication - esp. when they are happening at the same time. Rule out triggers, one by one. I would keep him out of the woods for a while - so you don't have to bathe. Try just a damp cloth if he gets into something vs. a full bath.

Also - I don't know what you are feeding him, but grain free is supposed to help a seizure dog - as some things in the food can be triggers too. Do a forum search, I know I asked about this with Heidi and got a lot of good feedback.

ETA: http://community.dog.com/forums/p/78416/611036.aspx#611036 that's the discussion on grain free food. I ended up putting Heidi on Orijen, until I lost her.

Oh I like the ice pack idea.  Sounds like it works well.  I will have one packed and ready.  Just told my husband.  What about this thing I read about pushing (not hurting) their eyes while closed during it?  People seemed to feel it was helpful as well.  And food is an issue for us since making even subtle changes throw him out of whack.  He is on Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach- no corn or wheat, no glutens, setter can't have them but I wanted him on Fromm Whitefish and Potato if I had a choice.  Protein is a bit lower than I like for him but I like the product.  I am going to try him on it again.  I would prefer to get potato in him rather than rice.  But he is doing fine on his food as long as he doesn't get into something he shouldn't.  i.e Visiting Grandma's and he grabbed food off counter, those sorts of things.  We try very hard.  But neighbors kids slipped him a treats the other day.  Thanks for the input!

I've never tried the eye thing - but I would be leary of getting too close to a seizing dogs face. They can tend to lash out and bite - becuase they do not know what they are doing and lose control of their functions.

losinsusan

He is on Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach- no corn or wheat, no glutens, setter can't have them but I wanted him on Fromm Whitefish and Potato if I had a choice. 

Just be very careful with glutens-------ProPlan Sensitive Skin/Stomach does contain pearled barley---a gluten grain----as does the Fromm Whitefish formula.  If you like the Fromm line, you may be better off going with the Surf&Turf Grain free (no barley).  If you have time, do read through the website referenced by Jennie-----  http://www.dogtorj.net/index.html       A lot of good information regarding seizures and diet.  My neighbor's seizure dog did quite well on the grain free Orijen formulas. 

Another positive is that their are a LOT of grain free treats out there, as well. 

Best of luck to you.

 The Natural Balance potato based allergy foods really seem to help. Emma is now on Hills Z/D, because her allergies have gotten so bad, but I fed her the sweet potato and fish for quite some time, with GREAT results.

losinsusan

Oh I like the ice pack idea.  Sounds like it works well. 

Are you talking about what Megan said?  She's not talking about an ice pack -- she's talking about ice CREAM simply to up the body sugar after a seizure. 

losinsusan

What about this thing I read about pushing (not hurting) their eyes while closed during it?  People seemed to feel it was helpful as well. 

I think you're talking about occular compression -- and that's a whole other deal -- and you really need to have someone carefully explain it to you in order to have it be beneficial.

I didn't mean for you not to do anything about the seizures ... *please* try a TCVM vet. I don't mean leave your regular vet -- I mean ADD the TCVM.  But yes, keep a seizure log, but you need to have him evaluated and hopefully started on some herbs so you can begin to get these under control.

Seizures can occur at particular times (i.e. the time of day can almost trigger it) as well as any sort of chemical or scent. But once they begin they do tend to recur. 

 It *might* just be that specific shampoo, it could simply be being that excited.  I'd surely use something very mild -- like baby soap or castile soap. 

 Holler if I can help you.  Even if you want to know what it is "like" going to an acupuncture vet.

calliecritturs

losinsusan

Oh I like the ice pack idea.  Sounds like it works well. 

Are you talking about what Megan said?  She's not talking about an ice pack -- she's talking about ice CREAM simply to up the body sugar after a seizure. 

No, the ice pack trick - you can place an ice pack on a certain part of their back and it can sometimes help slow/stop a seizure. It never worked, for Pirate, so I forget to mention it.

Thank you so much Callie.  I will consider the acupuncturist as well as so many other suggestions.  I am trying to prevent the use of phen at all cost but some on my setter forum are telling me that studies are showing that starting earlier on is showing that it controls them from progressing.  But I feel you then have a dog with maybe better seizure control but a damaged liver.  Such a trade off.  I will wait for the neurology consult and then weight it all.  Even with the slowest of transitions he gets so sick every time I try to transition his food.  I agree with the others that the barley would be best removed from his diet but even just a couple pieces of another kibble to start out with throw his whole system out of whack.  I am bummed to hear the fromm food won't work for us.  What about the wellness ocean surf grain free?  I am not super jazzed about the Natural Balance company after the recall problems.  I really like a company who controls their own food productions if possible.  Who makes a whitefish/potato.  I could give this another try again today if I find a new one to try.  So I need gluten free but simple ingredient panel, preferring one protein even so he can have an easier time with it-and he loves fish.

losinsusan

What about the wellness ocean surf grain free?  I am not super jazzed about the Natural Balance company after the recall problems.  I really like a company who controls their own food productions if possible.  Who makes a whitefish/potato. 

Welcome to the world of 'Life With a Seizure Dog, Where EVERYTHING is a trade-off', LOL. I'm not thrilled with NB either, but it's a food that is VERY simple, and easy to digest. Wellness Core Ocean is pretty rich, esp for a dog who already has tummy issues like your guy. I don't know if I'd even be brave enough to try it!