Meds for anxiety? I really need help....

 Lies, I agree with Callie in that this sounds very (please don't take this wrong) pathological. The reason I say don't take that wrong is that the word has such negative connotations when really it just means behavioral modification is going to have minimal impact on getting a handle on this, I believe.

The startle behavior you describe, the inability to settle, the randomness of her behavior - it all points to pre- or petite seizural activity.

You can have her evaluated, though it's a bit spendy. First I'd go see one of those vet behaviorists. I've heard the most good in connection with ACVB (sp, I'm having a dyslexic moment, sorry). They can confirm our suspicions. They may even experiment with seizure meds. I would not hesitate to try this to begin with. Seizure meds have icky long term effects, but for the sake of diagnosing the problem and allowing her to get a breath of fresh air and then treat her anxiety behaviorally - it's worth a few months or so on them, I think.

After that, I agree with Callie that the situation is ideal for the application of holistic care. Something as simple as changing the diet can alleviate seizural activity. I have a friend who bred a litter of BC pups and sadly several of them are starting to have epileptic episodes. All of them have switched to raw, home cooked, or grain free and every one has been seizure free for six months now.

The one that was the worst also went the Chinese herbal route and is doing fantastic.  There were other little issues that corrected themselves too that they hadn't really thought of as being related, but that's the beauty of holistic care.

Once the edge is taken off, it will be easier to address individual fear and anxiety episodes. I suspect, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that things like her dislike of men is a random association. This happens - her brain goes "ka-boom" for a second - it's not pleasant, and hey! that guy was standing near me when it happened! Or she smelled a hot dog. Or it was a fall day and the temperature was 78.6 degrees Farenheit with 56% humidity. We can't live in a dog's head and know everything that makes them scared. We can only give them the tools to deal with it - whether it's medical intervention or training or both. 

Most of all, the best tool she has to deal with these things, she's already got - and that's a loving, trusting relationship with her person. That's why, I believe, she has the most confidence when she's working as a team with you. It's easier to deal with the randomness of her world and the way her brain is screwing her over, when she's got something to do with you.

Good luck and I hope you can figure this out relatively easily. She's a beautiful dog - I remember when you first got her and thinking what a lucky person you were - and she was to have you!

Becca, not offensive at all. I'm familiar with the term. 

A lot of times all I can do is shrug.  I got this dog when she was almost 4 years old.  I don't know all the details about her life, I didn't get to socialize her and do the sort of imprinting I'd like to do with a puppy.  I got what I got.  As far as being my companion, I could not ask for more.  She really is a perfect match in size, breed, color, temperament, etc.  No dog is perfect!

brookcove

Once the edge is taken off, it will be easier to address individual fear and anxiety episodes. I suspect, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that things like her dislike of men is a random association. This happens - her brain goes "ka-boom" for a second - it's not pleasant, and hey! that guy was standing near me when it happened! Or she smelled a hot dog. Or it was a fall day and the temperature was 78.6 degrees Farenheit with 56% humidity. We can't live in a dog's head and know everything that makes them scared. We can only give them the tools to deal with it - whether it's medical intervention or training or both. 

Incrdibly well put, Becca -- to a far less degree it describes that instantaneous imprint that happens when any dog makes an instant association, with an unpleasant thing, but in the case of a dog with this type of problem it takes on new dimensions and like Becca says sometimes it doesn't even have to have some majorly horrid thing -- or maybe it does (like with Kee Shu's terror of being held ... generalized from being held by a BIG lady who did something probably ONE time).  Such a thing can take on almost a 'primary' importance (when they live with a guy and get started inadvertently ... or pretty secondary in Kee's situation (cos I don't force a dog to accept affection just 'cos it's unusual for the size and breed) but it's one of those things *in a case like Becca and I are suspecting* that may almost become easy to resolve once the dog is capable of rational thought.

Again, I would encourage you to PM Megan -- when they put Pirate on the meds initially no one gave her a list of stuff "to watch out for" which might help you avoid a few "cow pies" -- it was the pan cytopenia that became so grave for Pirate and avoiding that would be important for you (for cost reasons if nothing more).  I can't begin to put all my discussions with her in here, but as I said, my biggest concern would be avoiding the big side effects most of the pharmaceuticals have.  It's a start for you anyway.

**moderator speaking**

Thank you to those who are on topic and offering suggestions appropriate to being in the Health section of the forum

No more behavior mod posts in this thread please.  If the OP were asking for advice on behavior I am sure they would have put their post there.  They did not, so cease to address this with behavioral suggestions. 

And a reminder to be respectful or walk away

Thank you,

Karen

Back from the vet.  It was the vet I like.  There are several vets there and I can't always remember which one is which but it happened to be the one I've liked from before (and Kenya licked her face, lol).  It was funny b/c Kenya was really happy to be there.  She was excited that *she* got to "come along" and the boys had to stay home.  I wish DH had been there, so I could have show Kenya to the vet, then asked DH to come in and she could see the behavior change, but he had to take his class to Detroit and isn't home yet.  Basically we just went over all the behaviors, the dog's medical history, what we've tried.  Like Callie and Becca, she believes it is a "brain" thing and not a behavior thing, mainly because it manifests itself sort of randomly, and doesn't seem to effect her in ways that it would normally effect a dog (ie, enjoying going to the vet, being fine at dog shows, being reliable in the house when I leave her).  She also found it interesting that Kenya is normal with dogs, she is the alpha bitch, never been in a dog fight, loves playing with other dogs.  She wanted to try meds and do the behavior stuff at the same time, hoping the meds will help take the edge off, and the behavior work will start getting somewhere.  I explained that my problem was not controlling or managing the behaviors, but that my dog is not happy at home.  She asked how long Kenya spins "ten minutes?" she said and I said I don't know b/c I'd never let it go that long but she probably would!

I did ask my trainer/behaviorist about accupuncter b/c her dog got it and she didn't think it would be worth the time or money for Kenya.  She said it worked for her dog for just a few days at a time, and was more for a physical problem (stimulating muscle after a surgery, though the dog does have some anxiety over storms and such).

I never got a call back from the homeopathic person, so I guess I can go ahead and give the meds a try....we'll go back in a few weeks to re-assess.

I actually just got home from having Billy and Kee to see Dr. DiNatale and I talked with her quite a bit about Kenya (Yeah, I do that, but she also knows Pirate and about the Board, and sometimes I'll talk to her about a dog to see if *she* thinks it might be worthwhile for someone out of state). 

In honesty, it would be the Chinese herbs that would likely help far more than just acupuncture, for all the reasons I mentioned before.  They are very very similar to many pharmaceuticals, they just don't have the negative effects on the liver.  Be aware that if you start pheno or any other seizure drug, that also  means you'll have to blood test every 3 months (maybe more at the start) to check the levels in the blood.  That is honestly one of the many ways that TCVM just isn't as expensive as many folks assume it is -- you don't have to monitor the blood like that because there just isn't the side effects from the herbs.

Were you looking into a homeopathic vet as well?  That would be a whole different thing -- I know they use homeopathy with brain stuff, but probably not as frequently as TCVM.

Be aware -- very often holistic vets just don't have the same sort of office set up that a regular vet does.  They usually don't have a big office or a big staff -- often they just have their cell phone and travel to you.  But don't expect the same sort of receptionist/office set up -- and typically not when someone is really good. 

Honestly, I usually tell folks to avoid that big huge practice that has one "holistic vet" on staff -- often they aren't there all the time, and typically they don't see regular patients or have clients that visit often.  Sometimes I get  disappointed because I see them almost more as an accessory rather than there to treat in-depth cases. 

The vet who has struck out on their own may be a bit disorganized or repeatedly get home too late to return calls, but it can often mean they're just plain busy and in demand.  Most of the time I encourage folks to call 6-8 different holistic vets and talk to each of them.  Guaranteed you'll be completely out of patience with at least two of them, and 3 may totally rub you the wrong way.  Then hopefully you'll have a couple you can really "like" and choose between.  But you may have to travel a bit to see them -- but it shouldn't be something you'd need to have her seen "often" for.  Like I said -- my guess is that the herbs are likely going to be far more help than simply acupuncture.  This isn't something you want to 'cure' as much as modify and maintain (if that makes ANY sense at all.)

Sorry callie I got my "h" mixed up, I meant holistic.

This is the one around here.  The site made it seem a little over the top but my trainer said her friend goes there and recommends it.

http://www.holisticvetoptions.com/

She gave me amiltriptyline.  I had a bad experience giving this to a cat (or rather, my friend had to give it to her cat), but it turned out the cat actually had FIP which it died from, but it was creating all these behavior problems and the kooky vet gave her elavil.  So I guess I shouldn't judge based on that.

I can tell when it's getting close to our appointment, because he gets noticeably more uncomfortable. During the cool months he only goes every 8 weeks or so. IMO it's worth trying...it really can't hurt too much. When Pirate STARTED having full seizures I wish I would have gone the TCVM route - the seizure medicine made him SO sick and has left him with life-long consequences. Not to mention the $5,000 (no, not a typo - five THOUSAND easily) that we spent getting him well again.

I'm open to it provided I can even find someone who does it and I can afford it.  As much as I love my dogs I *do* have a financial limit in fairness to the rest of the dogs (and so far she has been perfectly manageable without any sort of treatment, doesn't have any "medical" manifestestions of the anxiety such as seizures, breaking teeth from chewing, granuloma, etc.  I would just like her to be happier and more relaxed in general).  I was worried about the cost of meds (ANY meds) but the ones they wanted to try are $15/month.  Luckily they are not putting her on a seizure med.  I know a lot about those since DH has been on them 4 pills a day for years now (he had to switch b/c the one he was originall on causes osteoperosis with long term use).  We don't like the cost or side effects one bit but if he still has seizures, he can't drive, so he can't work (he sometimes drives a handicap accessible van for his jobs).  I actually want him off the drugs but he won't try it, he is terrified of the seizures and would rather have the side effects,and since I don't know what having a grand mal seizure is like I guess I can't push it.

The Chi Institute is just *one* qualifying agency for acupuncture/Traditonal Chinese Veterinary medicine, but it's the only one I know of that actually qualifies the vet in Chinese herbology as well as acupuncture.

 http://www.tcvm.com -- on the left is a locator.-- you can do it by zip code or state, and go out to an extended radius.  The herbs Kee is on are way less than that but I've never had to do bloodwork either.  Her primary herbal is Di Tan Tang which is very close to phenabarb.  That particular herb is one of Dr. Xie's own blends and it is a 'prescription' herb (there's nothing like it in our Western herbs at all-- it's nothing you could just walk into a store and buy).

But this is also something you can approach later as you need or want to. 

Well it's been a week now and I've been watching her closely.  No bad side effects yet.  She doesn't seem any different (still spinning, hiding, acting crazy with the crates).  I guess no bad changes is a good thing.  Probably takes a few weeks before we can tell if there's any difference?

I don't think I missed it but what meds did they put her on??

 elavil

Today I took her to meet a friend's dog that's been kinda humpy and hormonal toward other dogs lately.  Kenya is the kind that will NOT back down, but also won't pick a huge fight either and won't hold a gruge (she will snap at a dog if it is rude but then play with it as long as it's not rude).  They had some initial snarks but then she did her play bows, they chased each other for a bit and lied down really close, didn't bug each other at all walking out to the cars (long ways).  I was worried b/c the vet said the side effect to watch for would be irritability and she has always been very confident and good with other dogs (much more so than people).  So, that went really well and we trust those dogs together.

Elavil will make me almost completely comatose at a very small dose!  They use it a lot for both pain management and depression.  I used to take it for migrains many years ago -- I used to break those wee tiny pills into 1/4s or 1/6s -- and STILL couldn't stay awake to live.  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz LOL

 Elavil also affects me immediately. They put me on it for migraines. I took 1/2 of a 5 mg pill, once a day, for a month. Then, I had to stop being a zombie, and take care of my dogs, do my job, etc. I still had migraines, but didn't care. I slept a LOT, and was generally blah. I would call and ask about it. It's probably good to keep doing it to see whether it makes a difference, but I'm always in the vet's face, LOL.

Emma's medicine is shockingly inexpensive, too. It's $12.50 for a bottle that lasts 2 months. I was shocked!