Meds for anxiety? I really need help....

Liesje

my dog doesn't need leash guidance, she already knows all those commands and behaviors.

Does she know "no bolting" and "no spinning"?

Liesje

I'm not going to blame her for a neurological condition and tell her she can't ever get in and out of the car until she magically calms down on her own.  Talk about "blaming the dog"...

Exactly: blame the dog. I dont see whats wrong to use NILIF here, no calm = no out of the car. I dont see what "magic" has to do with anything here, is not magic.

Lets see. One hour of leash guidance vs years of medicines and stress. Like i said before, some trainers/owners ego (not naming anyone in specific) are the dog's worse enemies.

I think that even if you try the one hour leash guidance now, you would do it only to prove me wrong and not to help the dog, which of course would result in not accomplish anything anyway.

Read my OP.  Yes she instantly stops spinning, you don't even have to command her, just *look* at her and she will sit.  Because we had to perform the vehicle exercises in a trial, she default sits and she knows "load" (jump in the crate and lie down) and "hier" (recall out, front sit). 

If it will make you feel so much better, I will videotape my dog performing all your tasks on a leash.... (and then I will videotape her spinning and spinning the next day).  I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.  We have spent YEARS training and working on behavior mod.  It's a little silly to me that you think spending an hour doing something she can already do is somehow going to cure her neurosis.

What you are missing is that this is not a "calm" dog, often there is "no calm".  The dog is neurotic, period.  A day where we have an hour of calm is a great day for us.  That's not her normal state.  She's spazzy, anxious, twitchy.  THAT is what we are trying to address here, not the basic training.

espencer

Liesje

my dog doesn't need leash guidance, she already knows all those commands and behaviors.

Does she know "no bolting" and "no spinning"?

Liesje

I'm not going to blame her for a neurological condition and tell her she can't ever get in and out of the car until she magically calms down on her own.  Talk about "blaming the dog"...

Exactly: blame the dog. I don't see whats wrong to use NILIF here, no calm = no out of the car. I don't see what "magic" has to do with anything here, is not magic.

Lets see. One hour of leash guidance vs years of medicines and stress. Like i said before, some trainers/owners ego (not naming anyone in specific) are the dog's worse enemies.

I think that even if you try the one hour leash guidance now, you would do it only to prove me wrong and not to help the dog, which of course would result in not accomplish anything anyway.

So NILIF is the ultimate training tool? While NILIF is a great tool for training, relying to heavily on one way and one way only, can cause it's own issues.

I applaud Liesje, she was bright enough to step back and re assess her training style and Kenya's training over all to try and figure out how to help her dog.

Exactly: blame the dog. I don't see whats wrong to use NILIF here, no calm = no out of the car. I don't see what "magic" has to do with anything here, is not magic.

So, your dog refuses to calm down, and therefore you refuse to let it out of the car? What if the dog never calms down? You gonna stand there with them until they do? For hours? That isn't training, that is flat out selfish and stubborn, your not meeting the needs of your dog, your satisfying your own sense of self worth. (not naming anyone here)

Lets see. One hour of leash guidance vs years of medicines and stress. Like i said before, some trainers/owners ego (not naming anyone in specific) are the dog's worse enemies.

I work in the mental health profession, I see patients daily that fought tooth and nail to not take medication, denied themselves to the point of breaking, I see the Dr.s work with them week after week, until there comes a point where something has to give. For most medication does make it better and life bearable. For some.../shrug...not so much. The point is, yes years of medication weaken the body, but so does constant stress and anxiety. I really hate to think that someone would deny their pet medication that would ease their stress. Once again this is along the lines of selfishness and stubbornness. Not everything is black and white.

I think that even if you try the one hour leash guidance now, you would do it only to prove me wrong and not to help the dog, which of course would result in not accomplish anything anyway.

OK, where did I miss the part where she needs to prove anything to you? And is that an admission that you could be wrong??? Not help the dog? All I see is that she wants nothing more than to help her dog.

Liesje, for what it's worth my training style is my own, my dog is not the best trained, nor the worse, I have made mistakes and I can live with them, but good golly, you do what you think is best for Kenya. Oh, and Kord scored a 6 on that test.

Based on the test, I can see where the breed in general would score higher.  Kenya scored a 12 and if I re-frame some of the questions to match our context she would be even higher.

And yeah, if I was all med-happy you'd think I would have done this three years ago.....

But, there's a good list to go on here and take along to the vet next week.

Truley

So NILIF is the ultimate training tool?

Is NILIF the only tool you use? Because for me is not

Truley

So, your dog refuses to calm down, and therefore you refuse to let it out of the car? What if the dog never calms down? You gonna stand there with them until they do? For hours?

What if, what if, what if..... what if while doing clicker training a plane crashes on the trainer, should the trainer not do clicker training whatsoever then? Well what if she indeed calms down? Is stubborn and selfish to train a dog for more than one day on how to heel because the dog didnt do it right on the first day?

I just dont see what the big deal is on spending one single hour teaching calmly a dog on how to not bolt out of the car.

You know, next time he has a seizure, or is obsessively sniffing the air, I think I'll just leash pop him until he stops.

Well, I was going to post something concerning some of the posts but have concluded it's pointless.  

Lies, hope you get some answers at the Vet and I hope you find a way to help Kenya.  I wouldn't hesitate to medicate a dog if I felt it would improve their quality of life.  I would do just what you are doing, gathering information so that you can make an informed decision. 

espencer, since you are, obviously, an "expert" on all things dog please enlighten me...I have a dog who has been diagnosed as a wobbler.  From time to time, he has an unsteady gait.  He also has an auto immune disorder which has cause muscle degeneration in one of his real legs.  It is obvious, by your comments on this thread, that MEDICAL CONDITIONS do not really exsist, & that everything that goes wrong with a dog is just a failure on the trainer/owner's part. 

With this in mind, can you please tell me how to train my dog not to wobble.  Maybe, you can tell me how to put him in a "calm mental state" so that he will no longer have auto immune relapses that cause even more muscle damage. 

Hell, I'll bet that members with seizure dogs, AIHA, & allergy dogs are just dying to know how they can "train" their dogs out of these conditions that they have so carelessly allowed their dogs to get due to their lack of training.

Lies, I hope that you can get some answers for both your's & Kenya's sake.  I'm so sorry that one jerk can ruin an entire thread.

 Lies, I really hope you can find some answers for Kenya.  I am not an expert and I know you seemed dismissive of acupuncture, but if Kenya were my dog it would be something I would try... not sure why, it's just a gut feeling.  I don't think you should beat yourself up that she is not "happy".  Sounds like she is most happy when performing, and you give her more chances to do that almost any other owner could or would do.

 espencer, I think you need to read Lies' posts more carefully.  She has described Kenya's behaviours very well in a lot of detail.  I feel like I have a real picture of what is going on in her house, even ifI have no idea what is going on in Kenya's brain.

Now, I have a "spazzy" dog.  She is prone to being over the top and obnoxious.  We do have to expect calm behaviour at doorways, mealtimes, walk times and car rides, and the "good stuff" DOES NOT HAPPEN until we have calm.  This works for us.  It makes her stop and think.  It makes her "look before she leaps".  And it reinforces the cam behaviour, so that she offers calm behaviour more often.  It is a great tool!  BUT - this is not Kenya's problem and that is why it is not working for her.  Lies has been using this protocol for 3 years and she is still seeing "something" that all this training has not touched.

It's not that Kenya is hugely excited about going for a car ride, and just can't wait to get her butt in there and get going.  That would just be excitement, a lack of manners and a lack of impulse control.  If it was that simple I would agree that kind of method might work.  But it is NOT that simple.   Kenya HAS manners and impulse control.  She has been well trained and always stops the moment she is redirected.  I imagine it is more the fact that she starts doing it in the first place that is the problem, because it is indicative of a deeper issue:

If there is something "wrong" in the BRAIN, then no amount of training or rituals will fix it, until the imbalance in the brain has been addressed. 

This is N O T "blaming the dog", any more than it is "blaming the patient" when an epileptic person is diagnosed and given medication. 

Moderator Speaking...

For everyone posting...

The thinly veiled personal comments, disguised as "advice" need to be taken private....keep them off this thread. If someone does not feel your advice is pertinent they do not need to be hit over the head with it. State your advice and move on. Arguing is not productive and in fact lessens the value of a thread.

Keep it civil and if you have personal issues with a post or poster...take it private or move on. Further back and forth with be edited. If you want to discuss something related to training or discuss training philosophy...START A NEW THREAD IN THE PERTINENT SECTION OF THE FORUM. Note this post is in the HEALTH section.

Thank you.

I feel like this is one situation where there will be no total "cure" or easy way out.  It's like this kid I used to nanny for who had ADHD or was bi-polar or something (they were still trying to figure it out).  Not medicating and just working on his behavior was failing miserably, but each med also had various side effects and changed his personality in one way or the other, but in each case it's only fair to find the best possible solution for the dog or human.  I do not have this Saviour complex like I can magically cure my dog in one day.  I'm not going to wait around for her to decide to control herself because that would mean she sits in her crate at home all day.  So yes, in a sense I am blaming the dog because I think her brain is wack, but instead of expecting her to fix herself, we'll give her a little help.

I give my dog heartguard, medicine when he has a skin problem, when he has diarrhea, etc.

OCD in dogs is triggered by anxiety some times, before i decide to medicate my dog i might have to ask first:

-What I might be doing that it might be causing anxiety on my dog? Whatever happened in the past is there, in the past, what it is contribuiting to the anxiety now?

-Do i expect too much from my dog? Am i pushing him too hard? Example: Is my dog not pulling enough weight? Is my dog not doing as well on the Iditarod as i wanted him? Maybe he is but the stress to maintain the level i want him to be is too high.

-Is my dog stressing out for something that i want or not want him to do? Example: I remember all those reality kids TV shows where the kid is only doing someting to please the parents but the kid does not really like it that much, the kid still is winning but he/she would rather to do someting else.

An owner might decide to medicate his/her dog for anxiety but if the owner never stopped doing what is causing the anxiety or stress then it will be only a vicious circle

I remember a quote that helps me to realize sometimes if a dog has a neurological health condition or not:

"Our dogs are only a mirror of ourselves"

espencer

An owner might decide to medicate his/her dog for anxiety but if the owner never stopped doing what is causing the anxiety or stress then it will be only a vicious circle

I think what is being sought is treatment (possibly meds) for what is CAUSING the anxiety, which may be a neurological problem, rather than meds for the anxiety itself.  There is a large difference.

espencer

I remember a quote that helps me to realize sometimes if a dog has a neurological health condition or not:

"Our dogs are only a mirror of ourselves"

Wow.  It's hard for me to believe that anybody who's had any significant experience at all with dogs could truly believe that.  Certainly I can impact my dogs' attitudes and behaviors, sometimes greatly.  But to believe they are such mentally and emotionally simplistic creatures as to be nothing more than a mirror of their human?  Not the dogs I've known!

Chuffy

I think what is being sought is treatment (possibly meds) for what is CAUSING the anxiety, which may be a neurological problem, rather than meds for the anxiety itself.

(emphasis added)

"May" is the exact word in this whole issue