Meds for anxiety? I really need help....

I will probably go to a holistic vet (just found one) and our regular vet and get various options, probably go with my gut instinct I guess since there's so many options and I'm sure more than one could work...?

The only herbal/homeo thing besides DAP I've tried is melatonin because that's the only thing I had guidance from someone I trusted who knows my dog.  I'm not against herbals, but I won't start experimenting without someone who is qualified assessing the dog first. I am keeping a list of what is suggested so I know what to ask about.

I don't know that she was starved as a newborn, I was thinking more along the lines of missing out on some very early socialization and nuturing from the mother and littermates, as well as being surrounded by the stress of her caretakers trying to save her.  I've met others with dogs from her litter and they don't seem to have her "problems".  The only common thread I've found so far is that I've seen her mother slowly spin, but she is 15 years old, deaf and nearly blind so she has one doorway where she likes to lie so she can see each room.  She goes there, turns a few slow circles, and plops down.  I don't know if she's always been a spinner too or if it's an old age thing.  I never met Kenya's father because he died the same month I agreed to adopt her (he was 14, imported from Germany and scored High In Trial in SchH3 competition).  She's got a Who's-Who type pedigree as far as German working lines but for some reason she just turned out "wrong" (I say that in "" because her temperament makes her unsuitable for SchH and top sport, but for everything else we've tried she has excelled).

They have doggy xanax but I don't think that is the right meds for this. If you want to drive to lansing red ceder animal clinic is very good with diagnosis, breeding dogs, showing dogs and dog athletes. They are pricey but good.

For abbie I have been working with beth bishop. Google canine coaches to find her contact info. Also janet smith is a trainer that has worked with a lot of nerotic herding dogs and some have been medicated just so she could start the initial behavior modification. Eventually the dogs are weaned back off the drugs. Janetasmith.com I think is her web site. She's good about answering emails and has her own yahoo group about dog training. She could tell you what drugs she has used in the past.

Beth is great though too and well worth the money I have paid her. She is good about following up with you through email regarding what you have discussed and things to work on. She has dobes that have some issues so she is also familiar with high strung nutty dogs. She is a positive trainer and is always up to date on the latest training methods

 Hi!

I don't personally have experience with this, but this is info available at our vet's website
http://168.215.196.55:9003/vet_search_library.html

 Maybe it will help.

I made an appointment with the regular vet for Tues.  I go to a hospital with several vets and asked if anyone likes behavior cases.  They said if it's too bad, they can refer us.

Honestly I would just go straight to a vet behaviorist or a vet who specifically specializes in behavior vs. trying to find a regular vet who's just interested in it.  There are so many developments when it comes to behavioral meds and other treatment options, that most general practice vets don't have what it takes to diagnose and prescribe using the most current resources; they have to do continuing ed in so many aspects of their field that unless they specialize, behavior seems to get the short end of the stick.

stardog85

Honestly I would just go straight to a vet behaviorist or a vet who specifically specializes in behavior vs. trying to find a regular vet who's just interested in it.  There are so many developments when it comes to behavioral meds and other treatment options, that most general practice vets don't have what it takes to diagnose and prescribe using the most current resources; they have to do continuing ed in so many aspects of their field that unless they specialize, behavior seems to get the short end of the stick.

That's the thing, I don't know any so I'd need a referral anyway.

Here are some good places to start on your search - I'm not sure if you have to have a vet referral to schedule an appointment with these vets.

American College of Veterinary Behaviorists

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior

None on the second link for Michigan, poop.  Took me a while to figure out the first link (guess it doesn't work well with my browser) but funny enough the cloeset one of the vets on the list used to train his Schutzhund dogs at our club, but I heard he re-enlisted in the military.  I know he has experience with working bred GSDs but on his own page he doesn't list behavior as one of his specialties/areas of interest.

Promised you I'd stop back when I had more time -- and I've been puzzling over this for both days.

herbs work great for single occurrences ... or for a dog that stresses in *specific* sorts of predictable situations (like simply being introduced to a crate same time, every day, etc.)

However, you said a lot of things that made me think this is likely more brain-oriented than just a 'behavior'. 

Liesje

•  She startles easily, like if you drop a pan in front of her, tap her butt, etc.  Part if it depends on who does it, or who is in the room when it happens.  So for her CGCs she did fine with the noise tests in that environment, but say DH accidently bumps her, she startles and cowers.

This is just plain interesting -- now is it that when she does the CGC test she's with others, in a social environment ... as opposed to someplace quieter where she's not "on" socially? OR does the social situation literally act as a panacea for her -- I'm SAFE here because I can perform and do well ..."

Liesje

She has seen the vet many times for this, to confirm that there is no infection or anything wrong, but she just developed the habit of licking and chewing the hind paws. 

Yeah, could simply be habit -- OR it could simply be a more complicated repetitive behavior when she's not otherwise focused.

Liesje

I have tried everything the trainer has recommended, including using melatonin.  My trainer and her vet have been studying the use of this for anxiety and has had great success using it with one of her own dogs.  At a dose that would knock me flat for a week it made absolutely no difference in Kenya's behavior.

HOnestly I think this is extremely significant -- I"m no expert on melatonin -- but the key word is "anxiety".  I'm going to quote from Webster's here with purpose:

"1 a: painful or apprehensive uneasiness of mind usually over an impending or anticipated ill b: fearful concern or interest c: a cause of anxiety2: an abnormal and overwhelming sense of apprehension and fear often marked by physiological signs (as sweating, tension, and increased pulse), by doubt concerning the reality and nature of the threat, and by self-doubt about one's capacity to cope with it" [Webster's online dictionary]

"Anxiety" has a target -- we can use the word "worry".  But you're uneasy because of some THING ... maybe it's a worry about the future, maybe it's even an unknown ... but it's a conscious state of mind having to do with some "future" type event.  Because this or that might happen. 

That's what melatonin targets indirectly -- melatonin is a hormone, that's derived from serotonin (the brain chemical neurotransmitter -- like MAO Inhibitors (prozac, and all the zillions of similar drugs, including the dog ones).  Melatonin specifically is a hormone that is triggered when it gets dark to relax the body for sleep.  However,  it can be overridden at will -- meaning the dog can IGNORE that sleepy-type feeling -- which is why it's not working for her.  She's driven to obsess -- to action -- sleep isn't an option and neither is feeling sleepy.

Valerian and the other nervine herbs are relaxants.  But relaxing the body isn't going to do a darned thing for an animal whose mind won't let them relax -- you have to go to the point of giving something as a sedative to PUT them into sleep mode.  So again, it's probably not going to work in the case of an animal whose mind is either in over-drive OR who has compulsive issues triggered by stress.

Bach Flower remedies can be really useful BUT they have to be handled by someone who really truly understands how to use them.  I've seen them used but you really have to know how to work with them.  Rescue Remedy?  I've had a few dogs who did well on it and a few who ... it made NO difference for them at all.  I've tried it on me and have found it ... **rolling eyes** Well, it's an interesting dropper!! That's about the extent of my use of it LOL. 

But here's where I'm going with this.  It seems like she has two ways of dealing with challenge -- if she's in a "performance" situation, where she KNOWS what you want out of her, she is stellar.  It's a known quantity to her -- when Lies gives me THAT signal I do this EVERY TIME.  Even in situations that might punch another dog's buttons (like the CGC) she rolls into performance mode and doesn't think.  She simply trusts YOU enough to respond.

I'd wager Kenya would tell you those ARE her "happy" times.

Liesje

There are certain people that make her super nervous, mainly men that are large and/or loud.  She is super nervous around DH if I'm not there.  If I'm away for the weekend she basically stays in her crate or under the desk.  She won't eat unless he puts the bowl in the crate and leaves her be.  Sometimes she won't poop or just won't eat (in contrast, when we left all three dogs in boarding together with a female friend, she had no problems eating or pooping). 

Men are her worst nightmare -- ... nooo, let's be more specific .... being ALONE with one is probably her worst nightmare.  And honestly?  Altho you may esteem this breeder highly, I'd bet her husband is a jerk in a big way, because I'd bet he had a head start on making Kenya a wreck BEFORE she had the incident of running away.  Being alone with your husband is simply the next step in her ongoing fear of men issues.  Particularly, probably, when she's alone with them and "in their care".

Ok -- now we have a high stress situation, where she can't control or "perform" to facilitate an outcome.  She ... hides.  To the point where food, nor basic bodily functions even entice her ... only when she's in a "safe place" (a den like setting -- crate or under the desk which likely smells like you). 

Liesje

She is a spinner, OMG a spinner!  I've seen her mother do it too.  She spins in her crate when I get home, she spins in front of the door to be let in or out, and just in the past few days (this is a new thing which prompted this thread) I see she is now spinning like crazy on her dog bed.  The alarm goes of and she starts spinning and doesn't stop until I'm up and opening the bedroom door, then she goes down to the slider and spins there until I open that door.  If I just stand there and stare, eventually she will abruptly stop and sit (this was *supposed* to be her default door/wait behavior, and the lady I used for boarding said she worked on reinforcing the sit), but its the few second while I'm moving to the door that she is just spinning like mad.  If I say "Kenya knock that off" she will stop and sit, but no matter how much we work on this she actually has to be redirected to stop and sit every time.  She will instantly sit, but you have to say something or she just keeps spinning.  I put spinning right and left on a cue as a trick and that didn't help one bit, in fact the spinning thing has gotten worse (she used to be really bad about jumping on the doors and on me so it seems after I trained her to stop that, she started spinning instead).  It's like she honestly cannot control herself, I don't get mad I just feel bad about it

This one is probably the clearest "signal" of what I think is going on -- spinning can be what my Dr. DiNatale calls "pre-seizurey behavior".  Because you can call her, or specifically address her, get her attention and GET HER TO STOP (but with serious attention and effort in so doing) it's not a full blown seizure.  But it IS "compulsion". 

And it increases -- now she's spinning in her bed -- because she's identified the trigger of the alarm as "starting the day". So when the brain surges "on" and she has no other specifc active instruction that is controlling her in a low-stress environment (which with Kenya seems to be "performance" -- when she's performing she feels safe AND she succeeds so it's a win/win for her -- no man is going to sneak up on her  WHILE she's being 'judged' or performing because everyone is "watching" and it's orderly (to her mind) and she knows what to expect.  However, beginning the 'day' isn't an environment where she's comfortable -- it's too "open".  Not as regimented as performance mode is.  So ... she feels at loose ends so she spins.

Liesje

For example, say we are going out to the car for a ride.  Now Coke will walk out to the car, stand there with his tail wagging as I open the door, step up into the crate, and lie down.  Kenya BOLTS out to the car, sits down automatically but is literally shaking and twitching as I open the car door, tell her "load" and she FLIES into the crate, slamming her body into the back and making a huge mess of any bedding that I had nicely arranged for her.  Coke and Nikon walk up and down the stairs, Kenya literally flies taking maybe 1-2 steps the whole way.  If I stand in the middle of the den and say "Kenya, come!"  instead of walking over and looking at me, she runs under the desk, then runs into a crate, then runs to the door and spins.  Like she can't just walk over and see what's up, she thinks she HAS to do one of those things she already knows (crate, out, desk, etc). 

You've identified it very well -- the obsession gives rise to this stream of energy that HAS to take the form of some sort of action ... and it's not even completely controlled -- it's full-out adrenalin -- you don't trot or even run you ZOOM so fast you can't even slow down to enter the crate -- you literally launch in til you crash.  Because the adrenalin/energy burst is in control -- not the mind.  She's not racing another dog to 'win' a dog/dog contest -- she's simply racing to the target and if she can't do anything else when she gets there she spins.

This isn't anxiety.  This is obsession or 'compulsion' if you will.  It's not conscious ... it's just what she does.  And if she's not in a "go to" place (like racing TO the crate or in transit somehow -- and there is no other stimulus around her (like being alone during the day while you're gone) she obsesses and licks.  Because she's developed that as a comforting habit.  It's comforting to lick.  That's where lick granulomas COME from -- despite the fact that they're making their skin sore and often bloody -- they are 'comforted' by the very action of licking.  That's relatively inate.  But it's an inate behavior run amok.

Ok -- I'm not a behaviorist (and I don't think this is behavioral by the way -- I think this is pre-seizure activity -- I think it's brain/chemically controlled) 

The problem is if you try to just take her to a regular vet and they decide they concur with you they'll just slap her on phenobarbitol or something -- and that's gong to change her personality and it has a zillion side-effects.

I'll tell you what led me to this particular conclusion -- it's WAY different, but WAY WAY similar to how Kee Shu was when we got her.  I don't think she's ever have, in my presence, a true 100% bona fide "seizure".  We suspect there was at least one at one time, but when she came to us (again there's a lot of history we DON'T know) her obsessive behaviors were SO complicated that frankly, they really didn't even look like obsession. 

But most notably -- they were TRIGGERED BY STRESS.  And not all stress -- just particular types of stress!!!  Her "stress" was being "with" other family and other dogs.  Now I didn't set up a camera, but Kee's behaviors would begin is pretty predictable situations.  And the longer they went on the more complex they became.  She did a bit of "fly-catching" but that was actually a very minor part of it -- but she would crane her neck in either direction back and forth like she was searching for something .. and then after the 3rd repetition THEN she would lick lick lick (actually a certain number of times). 

Let me also interject here that we have to be really careful not to anthropomorphize "stress".  We humans would categorize stress differently than dogs ... for ME, I can't think of a more stressful, horrible, fear-inducing situation than having to "perform" ... and yet, it seems Kenya sees it as a 'given' -- a highly controlled atmosphere where SHE can excell and do very very well.  She's decided it's 'safe' while she's doing that but put her in a "normal" situation like hearing an alarm clock and she stresses because it's likely to "open" for her.  "stress" has to be completely defined by THIS individual and what cause stress to that unique individual.

I'll also insert in there that Kee Shu was afraid ... of ME.  She was fine on the floor but she's the only tiny dog I've ever known who HATED to be picked up.  She derived NO comfort whatsoever from **any** human.  She didn't want to be petted, she didn't want to be held, she didn't want to be up on the furniture NOTHING.  But she was easier with David (and other men) than with me -- and my own *personal* theory is that she was, at some time in her distant past, not just hurt by a woman, but was likely THROWN by a **large** woman.  (may she rot in eternal flames for what she did to this dog!!).  She gradually got so she didn't tremble when I picked her up but she never "liked" it until after Dr. D got her diagnosed.

We eased into this slowly because like you, I tried "everything else" first.  Giving her something like valerian would just put her to sleep for a WHILE and then all the weirdness was back (and she had other way weird behaviors -- the air-licking was only ONE of them). 

Now Dr. D does TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) and seizure activity is literally one of her specialties (and she teaches all over the world, INCLUDING in China because Chinese vets, as you'd imagine, aren't exactly geared to helping companion animals).  Initially she put kee on an herbal formula that is similar to pheno, but completely herbal (so it doesn't have ti long-term side effects pheno and the other seizure-type drugs have).   But we eventually had quite a breakthru -- the seizure blend helped enormously, but at times of what to *KEE* is 'high stress' she would sometimes revert to the obsessive behaviors.

Even after Dr. D put her on the seizure herbs (which had an almost immediate incredible positive effect the diminish the obsessive stuff HUGELY

We found a further "clue" after she'd been on the herbs for about 9 months.  One night she went back outside (when everybuddy else came in) just prior to a severe thunderstorm.  Now she's never EVER shown any problem with storms, but this was a BAD one and we literally caught it right away that she'd gotten out b/c David and I were counting noses and ... err ... where DID she go?  We were looking IN the house because all 4 had come in ... but she'd apparently gone back out before the door shut.

Somehow in that 5 minutes she was outside in that storm there was a huge bolt of lightning and we **suspect** she may have seized out there.  Because When we found her she was a complete mess.  She had shut way down and drawn into herself like I'd never seen.  I was afraid initially she'd had a stroke or something.

I got her right in to Dr. D -- after a day or so she was pretty well back to "mostly ok" but there was some extra obsession creeping back in that we hadn't seen in many months. Something had obviously "happened" outside.

Dr. D put her on a short course of an extra herb blend (it's actually a popular one in Chinese medicine called "The Great Pulse";) that is specifically used when there is residual problems caused by some event that "rocks your world".  It's literally used to get thru a traumatic post-stress'type of thing.

WOW ... Now we'd been doing the seizure herbs for about 9 months then and we'd seen SO much progress in her it was unbelievable.  She went from a dog who was literally a ball of compulsive repetitive behaviors (and you could get her 'out' of them but the instant you released mental control of her she was right back at them) to a pretty normal (altho not very bright) dog.  Still a bit of a space case, but mostly 99.999% of the time "on this planet".

But WOW ... suddenly after this 2 week course of The Great Pulse -- I HAD A NEW DOG!!!  Suddenly you looked in her eyes and SHE was there.  She would connect with you where she never had.  Suddenly she was aware and a happy little girl.  Humans became ... wow ... a friend!! Fancy that!!

That was most than 2 years ago ... now she's still never going to give Einstein a run for his money.  But she is a sweet little dog who, at this point, LOVES human attention and human affection.  Now she doesn't demand it ... but she surely enjoys it.

She continues on the Di Tan Tang (the phenobarb type herb) and she will always be on it.  But i haven't had to increase it EVER.  She takes one other herb that helps regulate blood pressure (she's like 17 probably).  She sees Dr. D once a month (and wouldn't need to - mostly she sees her for an ongoing neck problem -- if she were going for just the seizure herbs she would go far far far less).

Because the herbs are more gentle, she doesn't even need tons of bloodwork, etc.  In fact, the big advantage of the TCVM is there really is not much testing at all.  In fact, the ONLY time she's ever had blood drawn was last month when we did a senior blood profile on her (just because we hadn't ever done one before).

TCVM shouldn't break the bank.  The *first* visit is pricey but they spend about 90 minutes with you and the dog (no joke) and acupuncture is part of the treatment.  Thereafter it's follow-up exams and ALWAYS acupuncture is included (so the treatments/visit are more like an hour than 5 minutes -- so you're getting your $$ worth and here in the city, and given that Dr. D is on the faculty of the Chi Institute she is one of their premier vets so she can command any fee she wants) and I think it's *just* gone up to $75 a visit (has been $60 for a long time).  The herbs are cheap and I just mix them in her food (no capsules).  I don't mind paying for a 'treatment' and exam that lasts an hour.  It gripes me big time to pay $40 - $50 for 5 minutes of a vet's time AND then have to pay tests and drugs on top of that.

If you want to email or PM me I'll be happy to give you some pointers on "picking" a TCVM vet (what to avoid, what to look for). 

I have a strong feeling this isn't behavioral at all, Lies ... at this point I've had quite a bit of experience with both damaged dogs with behavioral issues and dogs with anxiety and also ones with seizure type stuff.  They are different ... but you've done an awesome job of explaining what she does ... but the problem with a specialist is that often they are looking for a laundry list of "things" or behaviors that may indicate this or that -- but they don't look at the whole picture, rather than just looking for specifics.

And you can then spend a ton of frustrating time "trying things" and things that can wind up being habit forming.

One of the people I would highly recommend you talk to is Megan, Pirate's Mom.  Pirate is on the SAME herb Kee is, for completely different reasons.  Pirate has more classical type seizures.  But he was on the pheno and then KBr (potassium bromide) **before** he was on the herbs.  So she has a really good perspective of before/during/after and she also knows why she's come to the conclusions about TCVM she has.

The one thing I'd really hope does *not* happen is I'd hate to see Kenya wind up taking some kind of MAO Inhibitor type drug that will "flatten" her personality -- it may medicate her into submission but I don't *think* it's going to truly solve the real issue.  But only a good qualified vet can tell you that-- but a vet who specializes in such activity -- if they are a traditional sort of vet -- are going to slap her on a pharmaceutical seizure drug and she'll be 'hooked' instantly.  That would be a shame because I think this dog has really found her stride with you and she knows HOW to please you and **that** probably more than anything pleases this dog and makes her happy.

I think she is unaffected by CGC and sports because she is being constantly told what to do.  Think back to the spinning...she will stop the *second* I say anything ("Kenya", "stop it", "sit", "platz";) or even just look at her a certain way.  But it's like if/when she is not being told WHAT to do, whatever part of her brain or something just takes over and that's when she is spinning, chewing, acting all spazzy.  She really just is not stressed by things that stress out other dogs.  Maybe part of it is me.  We work (as in, train, trial, and show) very well together as a team, we are very in sync and typically I do not make mistakes due to stress like a lot of handlers do.  I do feel nervous at trials, but I just tell myself I used to flip upside down on 4" of wood in a skimpy leotard so I am used to feeling vulnerable in competition and having everyone focus on me and tuning that out.  We are very consistent, I don't go to trial and all the sudden give off weird signals because I'm nervous.  Typically, we perform and are scored exactly as I expect.  What I get in training the days before a trial is typically what happens during the trial. I do get nervous but in gymnastics I learned to channel that into focus (as a gymnast I made my worst mistakes when I was *too* relaxed and lost focus).  My friends say they cannot tell at all if I am nervous. The CGC thing is probably similar to the Click to Calm idea, the dog is empowered by being asked to do simple tasks and then being rewarded for doing them.  Not to diminish the CGC but all that stuff is cakepie for Kenya.  She came to be being able to pass and we did it repeatedly in various training classes more as a bonding/communication thing. 

There is just something more stressful for her about the home environment than anywhere else.  The only time I see her more stressed than she gets at home is at SchH *if* the TD is in close quarters (the big guy she's terrified of).  But if he's not right there in the room, she is fine.  She's done some of her finest obedience work on the SchH field (which is where she lived with her breeder for 3 years so it's another "home" for her).

I know the breeder's husband has nothing to do with this.  I can explain in detail but would prefer to do so not on a public forum.  He doesn't factor in unless she accidentally bumped into him and SHE has generalized that he is evil (this happens all the time with DH, she is running around like a spazz and cuts him off, he bumps her lightly, and she flinches and cowers like he was trying to beat her to death when it was her fault!).  I can do pretty much anything to her but she will startle if I surprise her.  For example if I spank her butt playfully like we do to Coke, she won't care if she knows I'm there playing around but if I take her by surprise she would jump but then recover because it's just me.  But if anyone else would do that, who knows at best she'd jump and cower, at worst maybe bite, I don't know.

I agree that this isn't exactly behavioral, it seems to be something that happens in her mind before any behavior or training takes over. When she gets really crazy it's like she has no control.  It's so difficult to explain, but it reminds me of like a truly OCD person doing something over and over until they are crying trying to stop but just can't.  Initially, she made a lot of progress with DH.  But honestly it's been plateued for probably a year and a half now.  It's like whatever makes her so neurotic is preventing us from making any more progress, and if we push harder we make a mistake or there's a small accident that startles her and we're just making things worse.

I don't think I said this in my initial post but she gets way worse with the weird behaviors when I leave, not for work b/c that's a comfortable routine but like for the weekend or a vacation.  Like this past weekend I was in Illinois overnight showing Nikon and couldn't take Kenya because I rode with someone else (usually I take her along just to avoid this).  I told DH about the new spinning on the bed behavior and he suggested it started when I left, which I didn't think about but makes perfect sense.  Whenever I leave and come back it's like there's something new we have to deal with.  I don't mind taking her along, but sometimes I just *can't*, and what would she do if anything ever happened to me?  I just want her to be more well-adjusted and be capable of coping.  When I'm gone, DH totally ignores her b/c that's what she wants.  He puts her food in her crate b/c she won't eat it unless she can hide.  He opens the door and says her name so she knows she can potty and he just lets her be.  No one comes over while I'm not there (when I'm home and people come over, she's fine meeting them, but sometimes I crate her more for her sake b/c she's more aloof and would rather the boys take all the attention).

And now of course we're having a "good" day where she's smiling and wagging her tail, so I second guess everything I've said, but this is how it's been for 2 years now.  I think "oh, she's fine! she could be much worse..." and then she has a TERRIBLE week and I feel horrible for thinking she should just deal with it for no other reason than *some* dogs are worse.....ugh.

I'll have to read your post more thoroughly when I'm not multitasking...

Liesje

There is just something more stressful for her about the home environment than anywhere else.  The only time I see her more stressed than she gets at home is at SchH *if* the TD is in close quarters (the big guy she's terrified of).  But if he's not right there in the room, she is fine.  She's done some of her finest obedience work on the SchH field (which is where she lived with her breeder for 3 years so it's another "home" for her).

I think when she is what I'm calling "performing" (Shutzhund or any dog sport where she's in a big dog 'activity' working with you or working with you in a training environment -- you are completely commanding her attention.  She's focused and not stressed because it's a completely known quantity to her and she excels there.  It's easy to 'enjoy' what you do well for both dogs and humans.

and the one place that's 'different' is where there is a big, authoritative male figure -- yep, she's consistent.

Liesje

agree that this isn't exactly behavioral, it seems to be something that happens in her mind before any behavior or training takes over. When she gets really crazy it's like she has no control.  It's so difficult to explain, but it reminds me of like a truly OCD person doing something over and over until they are crying trying to stop but just can't. 

This sort of obsessive/compulseive stuff IS pre-seizure activity -- that's it by definition.  It's more electrical in the brain because it's sheer response -- and it's EXACTLY what you said above -- it's what happens before conscious thot intrudes.  And you have to remember this is a dog (not a human) where they really don't have the full capacity to 'reason' with themselves and make better choices to help themselves. 

This kind of thing DOES progress tho -- and you are seeing that.  I SO wish I'd seen Kee Shu 10 - 15 years ago.  By the time WE got her she was already 14 or so years old and very ingrained in her little compulsive responses. SO much so that by then she was well on her way to retreating from reality.  The former owners simply thot the repetitive behaviors and the "fly catching" etc was FUNNY. 

When a behavior is SO closely linked with a chemical response in the brain you have to disrupt that for them to have any real victory over that behavior.  Simply BECAUSE you can't physically command their thought 24/7.  The meds help bring the brain back down to a level where conscious *normal* reaction and thot is possible.

Giving commands to her does not mean that she will stop that state of mind. Like i always say, not because the dog is seated that means is calm. I think you have never actually tried to stop the behavior, sure, you give her commands to stop but you know that she does not listen.

How to stop the spinning and the bolting? Just use the leash, not to correct her but to help you to redirect the behavior. The bolting out of the car it's the easiest one, you open the door and grab her leash. She can NOT get out of the car until she is C-A-L-M mentally. Grab her leash to guide her and do baby steps out of the car, if she bolts out, you hold the leash and then she goes once again entirely into the car and starts once more = she does not go anywhere until she gets out of the car calmly.

The spinning it's the same, put the leash on and stop the spinning either with only the leash or helping with the other hand touching to avoid the spin. She has never learned not to and the voice commands are not strong enough, gently touch and redirection will help her to realize what do you want or you dont want her to do.

I assure you that if you do the car exercise for only one hour repeating and repeating you will see the difference.

The same with the spinning, if you have to hold her gently for 20 minutes to avoid the spin then stay there with her for 20 minutes until she is calm mentally

Sometimes it might seem that is not working but if you realize how much time has passed then you will see that most owners just give up after 2 minutes literally

Her mind can not stand be in that state of mind for so long, it always comes a moment when she will relax but you have to be patient because it wont relax after 2 or 5 or 10 minutes. If you stop her from going forward with that state of mind then she will "give up" and relax. Just try it, it wont take you more than an hour of one day to see results.

Make sure not to nurture the behavior at that moment by felling sorry for her, just act like if it was a normal thing

Respectfully, espencer this is not a training issue or a behavior mod issue, this dog has always been this way to one degree or another.  I don't need a leash or any physical manipulation to stop the behaviors, that is not the problem.  The problem is the root cause of the behaviors.  That is why this is in the health section and not the behavior or training section.  The assessment from the trainer/behaviorist is that the dog is OCD, and that is just not something you can train out of a dog or person.

Callie said it well:

When a behavior is SO closely linked with a chemical response in the brain you have to disrupt that for them to have any real victory over that behavior.  Simply BECAUSE you can't physically command their thought 24/7.  The meds help bring the brain back down to a level where conscious *normal* reaction and thought is possible.

Living with someone who is epileptic, this very much makes sense to me.  Not that Kenya has seizures, but the concept of how the brain functions and how it needs to be interrupted and leveled off before anything else can be addressed.  Trying to train away her behavior would be like waiting for my husband to have a seizure and trying to train him to stay conscious and hold still.  I want a more proactive approach that doesn't require all this training and intervention on a dog that is perfectly well trained and behaved.

Liesje

Respectfully, espencer this is not a training issue or a behavior mod issue, this dog has always been this way to one degree or another.  I don't need a leash or any physical manipulation to stop the behaviors, that is not the problem.  The problem is the root cause of the behaviors.  That is why this is in the health section and not the behavior or training section.  The assessment from the trainer/behaviorist is that the dog is OCD, and that is just not something you can train out of a dog or person.

I think your trainer went to plan B: "blame the dog", because he is not able to stop the behavior either. Such an easy issue and such an easy way to solve it. Misdiagnosis by trainers make the dogs live in stress for years and owners (not naming anyone in specific) just give up and let their dogs live in constant stress because he/she "it's just the way he/she is".

The solution is just one hour away and it's free, no corrections of any kind whatsoever, just guiding the dog with the leash to what she needs to do, as easy as that.

espencer, my dog doesn't need leash guidance, she already knows all those commands and behaviors.  In fact the car load/unload was in two trials she just titled in.  She loads in and out of the car every day. I'm not going to blame her for a neurological condition and tell her she can't ever get in and out of the car until she magically calms down on her own.  Talk about "blaming the dog"...

Two dogs can execute the same behavior correctly, but one dog can be relaxed and the other dog can be totally stressed out.  Just watch half a dozen protection tests at any Sieger show.  You will see one dog heel off leash with his tail carried high, his head up, his face alert.  Then the next dog heels with his ears flat, his tail low, slinking on his belly.  Both pass and both heel in the same "correct" position relative to the handler, but one dog is focused and confident working in drive while the other has obviously been trained coercively.  Just because the dog can do the behavior and receive full points does not make that a happy, stress-free dog.

Do you honestly believe that neurological disorders do not exist in humans or in dogs?  Why don't you e-mail my husband and tell him to just relax and try real hard not to have a seizure, see how well that works......

I think you are dead wrong.  Doing nothing about these conditions is what makes dogs live in stress for years.  As evident by the varied responses in this thread, there are quite a variety of ways to treat these issues.

If you have any HEALTH related experience with this issue, I'll gladly hear it...