Meds for anxiety? I really need help....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Meds for anxiety? I really need help....

    I've been putting this off for so long.  While we've made great progress with Kenya, at the same time I've learned some things about her temperament that haven't changed a bit and likely will never change.  At this point there's really no point in guessing *why* she is the way she is, she just is and that's how she was when I got her.  I'm trying to decide whether to consider some long term medication or not.  Everyone that has met her (like my friends, family, dog friends, etc) thinks I'm nuts, except me, my DH, and my main trainer think maybe she should be medicated.

    The backstory is that we adopted her when she was three and a half.  I was e-mailing with someone in rescue and sent her a list of dog activities I was interested in.  She told me her friend, a breeder, recently had a dog returned to her that needed a female companion and would be great for the activities I wanted to try.  So I adopted her from the breeder.  She was bred and raised by the breeder.  I don't know if this accounts for anything, but when she was born, the dam stopped producing milk (something that was known by the original owner of the dam and not disclosed to my breeder, hence the end of a friendship).  Kenya was a runt and even with another dam being the surrogate, she needed to be tube fed.  The breeder kept her very close, trying to save her, but she spent more time away from the litter and surrogate being tube fed and monitored.  The breeder kept her and by the time I adopted her, she had her UKC championship, basic obedience, and basic agility training.  The reason she was returned was that the breeder had given her to a friend who is really active in agility.  While Kenya was with this family, someone took her into town and when she hopped out of the vehicle, someone (I'm not sure who but it was a big guy, either the husband or a friend) thought she would take off so he started screaming her name and running at her.  THAT freaked her out so she did take off.  The man literally tried to tackle her to catch her, all the while scaring her more even though he didn't mean it.  I think it took them several hours to catch her, and they said ever since then she was scared of men.  She was returned because she was scared of the husband and they didn't think it fair to keep her in that environment.  She still absolutely adores her breeder, but this incident has become so ingrained in her mind, she just plain doesn't trust certain men (my DH, my dad, a few others....but there are some she is perfectly OK with, we just never know).

    What have we done?  Or lord what haven't we done!  When we first got her, she would jump and tuck her tail if either of us so much as stepped on a dry leaf.  She really has come a loooong way and she is a very, very good dog.  But in some areas there has been little to no progress regardless of what we try.  We did the thing where DH ignores her and drops yummy treats.  He did a training class which was several levels easier than what she can do, but just going over basics using very positive reinforcement.  I've done training and competing with her up the wazoo, mainly because I thought she needed more socialization to gain confidence in new situations and crowds, but honestly it hasn't been a problem.  The CGCs and that sort of thing, which were supposed to evaluate her temperament, were all a breeze for her.  It's really not crowds, or competing, or new environments that are the problem, it seems like she just has to constantly be doing something physically and mentally, her mind just cannot settle unless she is actually sleeping.

    It's a lot more than just the men thing that worries me so I'll just make a list of the GOOD and the BAD (ok the bad is not necessarily terrible, just things that may indicate she needs medical help) and maybe you with experience in this area can weigh in....

    The GOOD

    • She goes in a crate and is fine.  I can crate her in a car, at training, at a dog show, at someone else's house...doesn't matter, she goes in and that's that.  She might give a few whines if say we are in someone else's house and she's not tired, but she settles.  No separation anxiety behaviors like trying to claw out, dig out, no chewing on the bars, no barking or howling.  Always been pretty much an angel when it comes to the crate.
    • She's reliable in the house alone.  To date I cannot think of one single thing she has chewed or destroyed.
    • At night she follows me to the bedroom and sleeps on her dog bed.  She doesn't startle at night and she stays on her dog bed until I get up.
    • Generally if she's inside and we're not actively doing something, she just lies down on the couch or under my desk.  She is good on the couch so she has couch privilege (as well as bed privilege but she seems to prefer the dog bed). 
    • She doesn't bark or howl unless someone is at the door.  In fact she never barked once until we got Coke.  Coke always barked when someone came to the door so Kenya started and now she barks, mostly when I come home.  Other than that, no barking, very quiet dog.
    • In public, she is extremely well mannered and behaved.  She is very calm and aloof, very obedient.  She doesn't take much notice of anyone or anything else.  She is so easy to bring anywhere.  She walks fine just on a thin slip lead.  She will stay where I point.  For example, I take her to dog classes at our club if they are short on dogs and want new dogs for distractions when working with reactive dogs.  I tether her, tell her to platz, and I'm free to walk around and assist with the class and she will just stay put, even if she's not on a leash.  She will pretty much do anything I ask as long as she can see what I'm doing, she is not concerned with participating in what I'm doing.
    • She is trainable and smart.  She has her rally novice and advance titles and part of the excellent.  She did Dog Sport Family Obedience and Protection 1 Obedience (both much more difficult than rally).  She has agility titles.  She's passed the CGC several times, the ATTS temperament test, a herding instinct test, therapy dogs int'l test, and a test with the local therapy dog group.
    • She is generally very good with other dogs.  She is outgoing and playful with dogs.  At home she is our alpha dog but she has never bullied my other dogs and they have never, ever bullied her (for example she has never ever been the dog rolling around on her back, she's always the one play-attacking at the dog on the ground).
    • She's never touched my cats and they've never been afraid of her.
    • She is not afraid of thunderstorms or loud noises (she's been tested under gun fire and been to a huge fireworks show).

     

    The BAD

    •  She startles easily, like if you drop a pan in front of her, tap her butt, etc.  Part if it depends on who does it, or who is in the room when it happens.  So for her CGCs she did fine with the noise tests in that environment, but say DH accidently bumps her, she startles and cowers.
    • There are certain people that make her super nervous, mainly men that are large and/or loud.  She is super nervous around DH if I'm not there.  If I'm away for the weekend she basically stays in her crate or under the desk.  She won't eat unless he puts the bowl in the crate and leaves her be.  Sometimes she won't poop or just won't eat (in contrast, when we left all three dogs in boarding together with a female friend, she had no problems eating or pooping).  When I first got here she would not even *look* at DH.  Now she will go jogging with him, she will do tricks for him, she will put her paws on his chest so he can scratch her ears.  But if he makes the wrong noise or moves the wrong way she startes and runs to hide or runs to me.  My reaction is to totally ignore this.
    • She is a spinner, OMG a spinner!  I've seen her mother do it too.  She spins in her crate when I get home, she spins in front of the door to be let in or out, and just in the past few days (this is a new thing which prompted this thread) I see she is now spinning like crazy on her dog bed.  The alarm goes of and she starts spinning and doesn't stop until I'm up and opening the bedroom door, then she goes down to the slider and spins there until I open that door.  If I just stand there and stare, eventually she will abruptly stop and sit (this was *supposed* to be her default door/wait behavior, and the lady I used for boarding said she worked on reinforcing the sit), but its the few second while I'm moving to the door that she is just spinning like mad.  If I say "Kenya knock that off" she will stop and sit, but no matter how much we work on this she actually has to be redirected to stop and sit every time.  She will instantly sit, but you have to say something or she just keeps spinning.  I put spinning right and left on a cue as a trick and that didn't help one bit, in fact the spinning thing has gotten worse (she used to be really bad about jumping on the doors and on me so it seems after I trained her to stop that, she started spinning instead).  It's like she honestly cannot control herself, I don't get mad I just feel bad about it.
    • Sometimes she submissive pees.  She hasn't done it nearly as much as when we got her.  Mostly it's when we get home, if she's too excited to see me, or if DH accidently startles her while she's already excited to see me.  I never correct for this, just shoo her outside and clean it up.  I've never seen her submissive pee in front of another dog or person, though I have seen dogs pee in front of her.
    • She chews her hind feet.  This started a month after I got her, she stepped on something and got a sliver in her hind foot.  The vet removed a sliver, but as it heeled, she chewed at it.  She has seen the vet many times for this, to confirm that there is no infection or anything wrong, but she just developed the habit of licking and chewing the hind paws.  It's not an allergy.  More like a lick granuloma except it's between the pads so there's not an open wound, but her feet are often pink.
    • This is the one that concerns me the most and is the most difficult to explain: she is just a spazz sometimes, everything she does is like 110% in bursts of neurotic energy.  For example, say we are going out to the car for a ride.  Now Coke will walk out to the car, stand there with his tail wagging as I open the door, step up into the crate, and lie down.  Kenya BOLTS out to the car, sits down automatically but is literally shaking and twitching as I open the car door, tell her "load" and she FLIES into the crate, slamming her body into the back and making a huge mess of any bedding that I had nicely arranged for her.  Coke and Nikon walk up and down the stairs, Kenya literally flies taking maybe 1-2 steps the whole way.  If I stand in the middle of the den and say "Kenya, come!"  instead of walking over and looking at me, she runs under the desk, then runs into a crate, then runs to the door and spins.  Like she can't just walk over and see what's up, she thinks she HAS to do one of those things she already knows (crate, out, desk, etc).  Now I know she is a GSD from lines bred with drive and energy, but this is different.  Nikon is very energetic and has been trained in drive and while he is a lot different than Coke and in some ways similar to Kenya, he doesn't have this neurotic, out-of-his-mind look about him that she does when she is doing even the most simple daily thing.  


    It's really hard to explain, and the behaviors alone are not a big deal, but when you see the big picture it's makes me uncomfortable that she appears to be living her life in this hightened mental state.  My trainer and my husband both know what I mean.  My trainer specializes in dogs that are shy, scared, nervy, and lacking confidence and she does agree that Kenya is at times neurotic.  I have tried everything the trainer has recommended, including using melatonin.  My trainer and her vet have been studying the use of this for anxiety and has had great success using it with one of her own dogs.  At a dose that would knock me flat for a week it made absolutely no difference in Kenya's behavior.

    I don't have any problem managing Kenya and most of the things on the "bad" list are no big deal to me on their own, but I am just concerned for her own well-being.  There are a few moments each day where she appears relaxed and happy, and I want her to feel that way ALL the time.  I'm looking for some way to bring her mind down a few notches.  I am not looking for a drug that will fix a problem (like an aggressive dog, a dog that destroys the house while we're gone, a dog afraid of storms), I'm looking for something that will make her finally happy.  I have tried so many things and sort of feel like a failure but the more I try, the more I see that she is the way she is.  I can't train away, manage away, or socialize away how this dog is wired.  I won't rehome her or give her back because I don't see what difference that would make.  She's often more neurotic at home with me than she is at a park, the pet store, in the car, whatever.  I'm just leery about meds because I'm afraid of side effects, but I don't even know what is out there.

    So basically I'm looking for anyone to weigh in.  Yes I would talk to my vet but this is as much a behavioral thing as a medical thing and I'd like to hear from others with experience before trying this or that with the vet.  I don't really want this to become an experiment, I want this dog to be happy.

    *sigh*

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have no answer for you. But I wish you well in finding the secret to Kenya's happiness.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Have you considered trying massage or accupuncture?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Did a bit with T-touch, didn't really help.  She likes it, but it has zero effect on her mentally, at least later on during the day, week, etc.  Accupunture...honestly I have to keep things in check.  I have three dogs and a fixed income.  I've tried DAPs, click to calm.....

    • Gold Top Dog

    I wish you the best in finding happiness for Kenya.  I have good luck with Chamomile Tea.  Perhaps you could add that to her meals on a daily basis.  Brew the tea (you can get it at the grocery store).  Poor cooled tea as well as the wet herbs on her meals...daily.

    I also have good luck with Valerian, but I only give that for anxiety on an as needed basis...it works.   I understand it is safe to give twice daily on an ongoing basis.  I would try that initially (along with the Chamomile Tea).  You can get it at health food stores, get the tincture (liquid) and mix it some yogurt or peanut butter (a dropper full) or 1 drop per pound of body weight.

     What about Bach Rescue Remedy for anxiety?  You can give this twice daily as well I understand...I have not used this.

    Aside from all of these natural remedies....I'm sure the vet has something more in medications that you could talk about. 

    I think you have done all you can do behaviorally (with training methods and socialization). 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks, Barbara.  Being that I've heard of those means they can't be too difficult to get!

    I haven't tried Bach's because after the DAP and a high dose of melatonin did nothing, my trainer didn't think Bach's would be worth trying.  It did not work for her dog (but melatonin does).

    • Gold Top Dog

    I tried DAP as well....didn't help here at all.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Yeah, so far the herbal/homeopathic stuff just has not been any sort of success, and at this point I'd rather do nothing at all than keep doing all these experiments and going up and down.  I need something that is safe and proven for long term.  My dog is just a nutter in the head, lol!  Sort of like my DH, he takes neuro meds twice a day, perhaps for the rest of his life.  I do not like it one bit but that is what fell into our laps.  I can see where the herbal stuff helps tackle certain situations, like riding in the car, storms, being left home alone....but the situations themselves are not the problem.  It's like her mental state is always blocking her/preventing her from going about her day in a normal dog fashion.  I feel like up until this point all we have been doing is looking at one thing at a time instead of the bigger picture.  I don't know if it's fair to her to keep doing that with little success, putting her through all these "methods" and "remedies". 

    • Gold Top Dog

    My Maggie sounds a lot like Kenya.  I think she's just a quirky, serious dog and thus she's not medicated - we've done the herbs, DAP, RR stuff here, too.  She does get herbs for very specific stessful times, but not continuously. 

    If you're wanting to try meds, your best bet would be to schedule an appointment with a veterinary behaviorist as they'll be the most knowledgable in that area by far.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You may want to check with Callie on some of the anxiety "stuff"---that said, I have had great luck with Milky Oat Seed tincture for our "nervous" puppy mill girl-----she used to do a lot of the circling behaviors, as well.  They have since stopped through the use of the oat seed and interrupting the behavior to make her focus on us/something else such as a squeaky toy.  She also exhibits that same fear behavior around certain men (not all, but tall, very confident men).  We have since discontinued the use of the oat seed, and have started her on specific flower essences---right now she is getting mimulus, rock rose and water violet---and for what it's worth, she is actually showing much improvement around my DH (a strong, confident man) He can now approach her without her tucking her tail and she will actually approach him for ear rubs, and play.  Not sure if it's the essences or timing, but something is clicking. (we have had her for almost 8 months).  Best of luck to you.

    edited to add:  For what its worth we had no luck with Rescue Remedy, but the single essences seem to be working

    • Gold Top Dog

    I sent a long e-mail to my trainer, she thinks the dog may be OCD (she has known the dog since I've had her - nearly 3 years).  I took this dog OCD quiz and it said 6+ call the vet and Kenya scored at least 12, lol.  I know it's just a quiz but I suppose I will be calling the vet hospital to see who specializes in behavior.

    • Gold Top Dog
    That sounds obsessive compulsive and I would put her on meds. No doubt about it. Feet chewing, spinning, brain never settling - she needs meds.

    One thing I have done with abbie is to do dailly massages. It was hard to find her calming spot (every dog has a spot that if you rub it they will relax), but with the help of a doggy massage person, we found it. It really does help settle her down. Working with a behaviorlist, she wants me to get abbie to the point that if I touch her while she is ramped up, she will instantly relax. It is taking some time but we are making some progress.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lies, have you tried or considered using flower essences? 

    After Bev was diagnosed as a woobler, & during the time that he was confined for his other injuries, his OCD reached a point that we couldn't manage without help.  Our holistic vet recommended that we consider using flower essences instead of traditional drugs.  We started out with Rescue Remedy, which made Bev even more of a head case than he already is.  Our holistic vet recommended two different flower essences.  One to calm him a little, & the other to help with his OCD tendencies.  I agreed to try them because I didn't like the idea of my dog taking prozac.  While Bevo was having to be confined, he took both flower essences three times a day.  It took a little over a week before we started seeing small changes in his behavior.  They did not affect his personality at all.  He was just a more mellow, less obsessive dog.  He still takes the essence that helps with his OCD.  Nowadays, he can sleep in a bed, with a blanket, without bloodying his nose because of obsessively straightening it.

    It's just another thing to consider.....

    • Gold Top Dog

    She sounds a lot like Casey.... similar behaviors, attitude, calm one second, spaz the next.

    I've tried RR on him, with no effect. I've tried the DAP - nothing. So I've pretty much given up on anything. I don't think MY dog is serious enough to medicate with anything.

    But- if you are concerned enough to be thinking about this, I think it's def. something you should bring up with your vet. Maybe something homeopathic would be greatly beneficial - without putting her in a coma like state. Maybe a mood stimulant would be beneficial for her. I'm sure Callie will chime in with some better suggestions.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't have any advice on meds. I hope you can find what you need. I did find your comment about him not nursing and being the runt. I know starvation can cause brain development and function issues in humans so I assume the same for dogs. OC is very common. A friend of mine had problems following surgery for obesity and was literally staving. He had major personality changes as a result.