AIHA or IMHA

    • Bronze

     Baytril is good stuff.  But I didn't like what that report said about using it with Cyclo.  Then again I'm not sure if anyone has studied Cipro with the Cyclo either.

     As far as the Aspirin, for me its been the opposite.  I've stopped Aspirin in the past and the Platelets go up.  I start it again and they go down.  Thrombosis is what kills dogs the most out of dogs that have survived as long as Clops has.  I'm just not willing to take the risk of thrombosis.

     As far as the Baytril, we've been lucky that Clops hasn't had any type of infection since this started.  I think its because we quit the Prednisone right away and have been steadily lowering the Cyclo to where her immune system isn't totally in the dumpster.  Either that or just got lucky.  But I'm glad you brought the subject up because I am going to start looking for info on a strong but safe antibiotic to use on IMHA dogs just in case.  The post on the Baytril (as much as I have liked Baytril in the past and have used it in the past on other dogs), kinda freaked me out.  So I want to see what info there is with Cipro.  

    We know Callie did Cipro with no problems.  Will be nice to have this info with Tessy. We'll soon know if #1 The Baytril worked for the problem and #2 if there were any complications using it.  Great info to have in case this comes up in the future.

    • Bronze

    cerberusdog
    Well I appreciate your opinion and think everyone is entitled to one Big Smile I agree about the aspirin. The chance of thrombus or embolism is significantly decreased after a month (I think that is what I read)...

     

     Thats funny because what I read was that dogs who survived the initial month but still ended up dying with 1 year were deaths from Thrombosis/Embolism.   I've read that the clots happen the most after the dog appears to be just fine, and after the blood work looks great.  Which is why I'm keeping her on Aspirin.  Lets put it this way, if I take her off and she dies of a clot I'm never going to forgive myself because I've had this gut feeling for a while so I'm not going to ignore it.  Also, every time I take her off the next CBC shows elevated Platelets which to me means things could clot. 

    But I know that there are lots of sites out there, lots of information, much of it conflicting information.  So you may be right.  I just know what my reading has told me and what I feel about it.  

    I've just had experiences where 2-3 vets all say 2-3 different things.  I've had a vet already try to give Clops a bordetella booster.  I've seen people on this forum told to give their dogs outrageous medications that are known to be bad for IMHA.  So I tend to check and double check all vets and try to pick which opinion I feel the best about.  Sometimes I ignore all of them and do what I want.  Hey my dog is 7.5 month survivor, I can't be doing all bad. =)

    • Puppy

     GratefulDawg,

    I've been up all night and part of this morning reading about Cyclops.  We are on our way to Colorado State right now with my dog Eli.  I'm 14 and my Bearded Collie Eli is 6.  

    I don't have time to go into all the details right now but we don't have much money so I saw one of your original posts where you said that CSU was a really great hospital but it was too far for you.  Its only 20 minutes away for me.  

    I know I can count on you for advice on keeping things cheap.  If not I don't know if my dad will pay for it.  But he loves the dog too so he is going to try.  

    I just wanted you to know how much I learned from Cyclops story and I think its nice that you still post here and try to help other dogs even though Cyclops is doing ok.  Thanks!

    Judah from Loveland, CO.

    • Bronze

     Hey

     I had to search the forum for where I mentioned CSU, yeah that was back on Christmas Day.  CSU is great.  And I'm guessing that you may have googled Bearded Collie IMHA or something to find this forum.  I had a Beardie when I was your age.  They are great dogs.

     I'm not sure if I am the best at keeping things cheap, even with my best intentions this thing has cost more than 7k.  I started with a 4k budget. 

     Having said that, I don't know what condition Eli is in.  When you get a chance to post back let me know what CSU said.  Some cases are cheaper than others, for instance with Val's dog Cooper, Dr Dodds said she shouldn't be talked into a whole bunch of expensive tests.  She got by without doing those tests and without transfusions.

     If you read Cyclops' whole story then you kinda know all the information that is relevant to post.

     When I started keeping a log of Cyclops' journey here back in December I was hoping that someday it would be of use to someone.  You've given me inspiration to go ahead with a website of some type which would be a clearinghouse of information that would be a little easier to get through than reading 65 pages here.  

    I know you're in good hands at CSU but feel free to contact me, if you need a quicker reply use PM so it will send me an email.  

    Sending good thoughts your way 

    Mike

    • Gold Top Dog

    Judah -- will be saying prayers and thinking good thots for your beardie!  Going to the vet school is an awesome thing to do for Eli.  And tell your Dad HE is also welcome to email any of us as well -- not to cut you out at all, but if he needs to know where we got something or how we managed something let him know he's welcome on here as well, ok??

    Keep encouraging Eli -- it's important Judah.  It really is -- very often the dogs who survive this horrible disease are the ones who don't give up -- who keep trying, who keep eating (even when they don't feel like it) AND the dogs who communicate with their owners when they don't feel good.

    We're pulling for you guys!!! (and I love beardies - I hope you can post a picture!!)

    • Puppy

    I knew something was wrong with him right away because he didn't want to play chase in the yard.   

    So the vet said he does not need any blood and he is looking for a reason why he got sick.  He thought maybe he got into some poison.  Eli does run around outside all the time by himself but we have a lot of land to do so, but we don't have any poison that I know of.  

    He is giving Eli Cyclosporine and I asked him about the generic which I learned from here and he said yes he will do it.  He is also giving Eli Aspirin and Prednisone.  I told the Doctor not to forget the Pepcid AC and he said I should be a doctor!  I told him no I just been up all night reading.  He is at 19.1% right now. 

    We took him to our regular vet on Monday morning and he started him on Prednisone and a different kind of stomach medicine.  I think it started with an S?  I am not sure.  Will look at the bottle later.  But the vet as CSU said that the one my doctor gave was fine for Prednisone but that the Pepcid was better for the Aspirin and Cyclosporine.  So anyway I noticed he was sick on Sunday.  We took him to the vet on Monday and put him in the hospital on Tuesday.  The doctor said since we live so close that he might release him in just a couple of days!  He said if he thinks he will be ok for the weekend then maybe Friday.  If he isn't sure he will keep him until Monday.  

    He understood about the cost and he said he would do all the basics and only ask to do more expensive things if he didn't respond.  He just turned 6 so he is pretty young and healthy.  The doctor does not think he has cancer.  We always bathed him in Adams Flea Shampoo and it has chemicals in it.  I hope that is not why he got sick.  He never had fleas because we use a monthly flea drop but we used that shampoo because it made his coat so nice.  I can't think of why this happened.

    Thank you for listening.

    • Puppy

     I did Callie, Thank You!

    • Puppy

    GratefulDawg
     When I started keeping a log of Cyclops' journey here back in December I was hoping that someday it would be of use to someone.  You've given me inspiration to go ahead with a website of some type which would be a clearinghouse of information that would be a little easier to get through than reading 65 pages here.  

     

    Mike, I am good at HTML, I can build you a site.  You give me the information and you write the posts and I will be your webmaster.  Between you and Callie there is loads of information to put out there for people.  I wonder how many people use this information and don't bother to sign up to post?  You never know.  Don't sell yourself short, Cyclops may have helped other people before me.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Judah, you rock!!  The toughest part of this disease is fine-tuning the diagnosis.  It can take some time, but they're usually good at it at a university hospital.

     Is the stomach medicine "sucrylfate" (sometimes called "carafate" - that's the generic name)? 

    When the vet calls the prescription into the compounding pharmacy DOUBLE CHECK (have your dad do this so they don't blow you off) that it is the *right* type of generic.  Gratefuldawg will be by -- but there are specific words to ask for and MOST compounding pharmacies don't get it right at first because it's not the usual thing.

    When Billy was at the University of Florida I sent him a fax every day and his student READ it to him.  Do dogs understand?  Some of it -- they know their name, they know someone is taking the time TO read something.  So just asking them to tell Eli "Judah says he LOVES you" -- that's a big huge deal.

    Then when he gets home you can read him his posts.  I know it helped Billy a TON to get encouragement like that. 

    When their PCV/hematacrit is low they can be nauseus and they just plain don't feel good. 

    You did good Judah -- you noticed something FAST enough to save your dog's life.  Like I said -- you ROCK, buddy!!!

    AND SO DO YOUR FOLKS for getting him to the University and encouraging you to help Eli like that.  It makes all of us feel good when we know that what's been written on here helps other people.

    • Bronze

    ElisHope
    he didn't want to play chase in the yard.   

     

    How do you play "Chase"?

    ElisHope
    We always bathed him in Adams Flea Shampoo and it has chemicals in it.  I hope that is not why he got sick. 

     Judah you can't blame yourself.  I looked up that Shampoo and everyone who uses it loves it.  It does have Chemicals in it, I've not seen any research to show that the chemicals in it are linked to IMHA.  We can look into it.  I doubt it has anything to do with it but you can switch to an all natural hypoallergenic shampoo with no added colors or fragrence.  I get some from Fosters and Smith.  It probably won't leave the coat as nice as Adams, and I remember what dealing with that coat is like.  If I skipped even a few days of brushing we'd have to end up getting our Beardie shaved.  My parents wanted to always keep him shaved but I was like, then why did we get this kind of dog?  I mean the dog looks totally different when shaved, you could pass the dog on the street and not even know him!  

    So anyway, don't do the blame and guilt thing.  Thats what I did and it didn't help anything.  No one knows this disease even exists until it happens to their dog.  By the way.. You getting your dog to a vet school within 48 hours?!  Unheard of.  I'm looking back and I waited 3-4 days before I took Cyclops to the vet.  I wasn't sure if it was old age or what the deal was.  When I got to the vet and got the diagnosis it still took another week for me to sign up on here and meet up with Callie.  So I went from noticing Symptoms on the 10th to 12th of December to getting her to the vet school on the 26th!  Cyclops had HCT readings of 9 and 10!  

    You did a great job.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    GratefulDawg
    Judah you can't blame yourself.  I looked up that Shampoo and everyone who uses it loves it.  It does have Chemicals in it, I've not seen any research to show that the chemicals in it are linked to IMHA.  We can look into it. 

    He's right, Judah -- and honestly -- there ARE some things they know do trigger auto-immune stuff (and I'm going to post about that below) but VERY often it is just plain *personal*.  It's just plain how THAT body reacted at that time to *that* thing.  So yes, there are some things they know (like vaccines, certain antibiotics, etc.) that are high on the lists of things that can trigger auto-immune ... and **some** of those things are things we GOTTA do.  But altho a particular thing might have been a trigger -- it's no buddy's fault.  Simply because that's how it "happened" that time.  Like my Billy getting bitten by a tick -- do ticks CAUSE the IMHA? Nope.  BUT for **Billy** it caused a chain reaction that we now can figure out led to the IMHA.  And that's ok -- because It gives him a better chance of not recurring. 

    So don't beat yourself up -- and don't load your folks with guilt either -- most of it is just chance.  Some things you can avoid (like vaccines and pesticides, etc.) but nobody "makes" their dog get IMHA.

    GratefulDawg
    You getting your dog to a vet school within 48 hours?!  Unheard of.  I'm looking back and I waited 3-4 days before I took Cyclops to the vet.  I wasn't sure if it was old age or what the deal was.  When I got to the vet and got the diagnosis it still took another week for me to sign up on here and meet up with Callie.  So I went from noticing Symptoms on the 10th to 12th of December to getting her to the vet school on the 26th!  Cyclops had HCT readings of 9 and 10!  

    THAT is the big huge mega super big deal here -- Eli -- I said it above.  YOU ROCK.  You took something seriously that everyone else would have ignored.  YOu knew it was NOT normal for Eli not to play with you -- and you **spoke up**.  And ... something tells me you must be a pretty reliable young person because your folks TOOK you seriously.

    Man -- honestly?   Gratefuldawg and I and other folks on here tell people ALL the time ""DON'T WAIT -- go to the vet **now** -- even just acting "abnormal" is ENOUGH reason to go to the vet". 

    But it takes a young person who knows his dog **well enough** to say "Eli doesn't want to play ... something is WRONG" and you saved your dog so much trouble.  IMHA is much easier to get under control **early** than late. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    So much for me trying to do an "outline" -- I can't get it to paragraph right.  I've edited it now for an hour -- I give up.

      This is for Judah "ElisHope" (man, I love that login name!!).  Your questions above were good ones -- why do they think "anemia" on one hand and keep checking for other stuff?    What "kinds" of things trigger it?  How does a vet look at a dog and *know* what's wrong. 

    I think THE coolest thing about having taken Billy up to the University of Florida at Gainesville (Go Gators!!) was seeing how they diagnose this stuff.  It's pretty awesome. 

    ElisHope
    We always bathed him in Adams Flea Shampoo and it has chemicals in it.  I hope that is not why he got sick.  He never had fleas because we use a monthly flea drop but we used that shampoo because it made his coat so nice.  I can't think of why this happened.

    Judah, I wanted to reply to this a bit more when I had time.  It is a *very* good thing to try and figure out what the "trigger" for the IMHA may be.  If you listen to the vets at the university you will learn *much* about how vet schools TEACH their students to diagnose things.

    I can't get this to let me to a real outline -- I can't get it to paragraph right even copying from Word.  grrrr

    My point is it's really sort of how vets are taught to think.  They take a broad symptom like "Doesn't want to play" and they think of ALL the things that might cause that.  But when they examine the dog there are certain things they look for that might make that happen.

    When a dog comes in with the general complaint "Not acting normal, doesn't want to play" --  they're going to look at several things first that cause "weakness" - and the general term "Lethargic" (slow, sleepy, does nothing in a hurry).  Honestly there can be TONS of things that may cause that.

    One of the FIRST things the vet will do is check the gums to see if they are pale or to see if the "capillary refill time" is slow.  The "pale" you can just see if the gums aren't pink (like yours).  Capillary refill is when the vet takes the tip of their finger and presses hard against the gum for a couple of seconds and then releases it - the gum will go pale where you press, but the color should snap right back when you release it.  (Go try that on yourself in the mirror and see what I mean.)

    Between those two they can show "anemia" (which can be lack of blood generally or lack of red blood cells IN the blood).  IF the vet sees external signs of anemia (like pale gums or poor capillary refill time, or just if the vet strongly suspects anemia they may just plain do bloodwork which tells a ton of stuff but the hematacrit will show low red blood cells and other things that fall into the category of anemia.

    With Billy his gums WERE pink and his capillary refill time was great ... but we did bloodwork *just* because I suggested it. (I was worried about that danged tick that had bitten him.)Ok - here goes our "outline"

    :Anemia - potential causes

    I.   Injury or general loss of blood

     ==== External injury (usually easy to see)

    =====Internal (bleeding inside the body)

          ??Is there blood in the stool.(poop)?  take a fecal sample - is it black and tarry?  That means bleeding high up in the intestinal process - large or small intestine or stomach bleeding passing INTO the intestine --- OR did owner notice bleeding in the stool that was bright red?  That would indicate bleeding near the rectum

    II.   Tick Disease - from there the vet may ask questions like what tick protection is the dog on?  Noticed any ticks?  Etc.

      1. If tick disease is possible do a tick test
      2. If tick test is inconclusive, and if dog is unresponsive a further tick "panel" should be done - it's expensive and takes about 3 weeks to come back

    III.   IMHA

    Treat for IMHA even if #2 or #4 are possibles because the initial treatment (prednisone) is usually the same and it will save time.

    Try to further determine and rule out possible things like internal injury, tick disease or cancer, etc. - there is some process of elimination there.

    Talk to owner about "triggers" to see if likely triggers present:

    Recent vaccines (1-3 months)

    Recent illnesses or exposure to illness

    Recent medicines taken (there's a whole list of drugs that can trigger auto-immune stuff) 

    Recent exposure to chemicals LIKE:

    flea/tick preparations (new?  New formula? 1st time this year?  New application of something used long term?)

    fertilizer/garden chemicals

    household chemicals

    city spraying (fogging) for mosquitoes, etc 

     Recent stresses LIKE:

    ++major household changes in schedule

    ++loss of loved one

    ++loss of animal companion

    ++loss of "friend"

    Various other diseases that can cause internal bleeding.(like cancer)

    Honestly Judah, each one of those things has LOTS of other things under it - but this will begin the list for you.  But vets have to go thru a similar process like this to determine any sickness - so just having a low hematacrit doesn't make a dog have IMHA because there are other things that can cause it.

    Try to make a list for the vet of anything you or the family can think of that Eli might have been near that was unusual -- have you seen him eat anything outside?  licking at something?  bitten by something (or even playing with an animal he shouldn't be?  He's a herder -- he's going to be around other animals IF he can!)

    If you have had him to a dogpark, or with you somewhere and maybe he was eating grass - see if you can find out if they had sprayed for pests recently, etc.Why?  You may never know or never be able to figure it out - but generally, they believe (as in "the vets who study this";) that if you can figure out the ‘trigger' you have a better chance of getting the dog off the meds *eventually* completely.  Some dogs have to stay on the drugs for a long, long time (like forever) and some don't.  You've probably read in this long, long  thread that we thought Billy had tick disease (he HAD been bitten by a tick).  His body actually had built antibodies to the tick disease and his immune system (which has never been good) saw the antibodies and thought *they* were the bad guys in the blood and started killing those.  But if you have had even a little biology you know that antibodies are what the body forms in the blood to fight specific infections so the body never getst THAT disease again.  So antibodies are actually the *good guys* but Billy's body didn't know that.  Once the body killed those, it began to think ALL of his blood was "bad" so it started killing all of his blood.So a "sick" tick probably triggered Billy's IMHA. 

    Other auto-immune stuff-

    There are other auto-immune diseases that can be a problem - and some of the folks who post on this thread (like Willow and Pirate's Mom [slr2meg]) have dogs who have had a disease SIMILAR to IMHA.  "auto-immune" or "immune-mediated" simply means that the body begins to turn around and attack itself - that something in the body is a ‘bad' thing and the body begins to attack itself. 

    Some affect the blood (like thrombocytopenia or pancytopenia like Willow and Pirate had) and some affect other parts of the body (like psoriasis or other skin problems, rheumatoid arthritis in humans, and tons of other things). 

    Sometimes it can just be big huge infections.

    But when Eli comes home you're good at watching when he does something "not normal" and Eli's lucky to have you.  Just noticing that he didn't want to play?  Honestly Judah, that's HUGE.  Because you got your folks to get help for Eli before it got really bad - and man, that is soo awesome. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Frisby and I are sending positive thoughts for you and Eli! Frisby's making a slow recovery (she's older than Eli--around 11 or so). Each day, she seems to feel a bit better and her numbers are starting to improve though they are still low. She lost a ton of weight but is now eating again. (The prednisone helped that.)  I called Frisby every day she was in the hospital and had the nurse say some phrases to her that she was used to hearing me saying to her at home. They know when you're talking to them, even if it's long distance!

    You're doing a great job staying on top of things and doing your research. We think Frisby may have developed IMHA from anaplasma--a tick borne disease, but it's just a guess. She's also had Lyme disease several times.

     Keep us posted--I'll update on Frisby's next blood work and xrays next week.

    PS We've often wondered if Frisby has a bit of bearded collie in her, along with the terrier and who knows what else.

    • Bronze

     Frisby looks like she has bearded collie in her! 

     You know, as bad as Prednisone is, I think you make a great point about using it during the starting phases of treating IMHA.  I was actually very thankful for Prednisone and how it helped Cyclops' appetite.  I think its good about Eli being a little younger because I'm not sure if you're like I am with Cyclops being 11.. but sometimes I'm not sure what is IMHA and what is old age.  We have a prescription of Tramadol for her in case she has stiff joints.  Its better for older dogs with IMHA than traditional dog arthritis meds.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Gosh it's good to hear that Frisby is doing well -- slow is FINE as long as it's an increase in getting better!!! 

     

    GratefulDawg
    I think its good about Eli being a little younger because I'm not sure if you're like I am with Cyclops being 11.. but sometimes I'm not sure what is IMHA and what is old age.  We have a prescription of Tramadol for her in case she has stiff joints.  Its better for older dogs with IMHA than traditional dog arthritis meds.  

    And the prednisone is hard on the joints ANYWAY.  It breaks down cartilage in a big way once it's used at all regularly. (Which is why I always tell folks to use the Knox Nutra Joint - it's easy, cheap and helps RE-BUILD cartilage rather than just working on pain.)

    You can't use traditional arthritis stuff because they are anti-inflammatories.  We forget the definitioins of the words.  Aspirin, ibuprophen (not for dogs), Rimadyl, Deramaxx -- these are all NSAIDS (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs).

    NON-steroidal. 

    Yep -- prednisone IS a steroid.  (and cyclospoirine, azathiaprene are "steroid-like" drugs -- sometimes called "super steroids" but they really aren't steroids specifically but are very steroid-like in how they work). 

    So -- you can't add the NSAIDs we use for arthritis because it over-doses the steroid drugs.

    If the skin is ok - you can use the topical essential oils like peppermint/wintergreen essential oils -- use them as a massage and they can really relieve soreness but *don't* use them on broken skin.