Is there a relationship between mast cell cancer and lipoma?

Hi , I do not have time to post often on this forum any more but when a question like yours pops up I try to make the time. A Lipoma is a benign fatty tumor. IT is not a cancer. MCT is a true cancer. 

My breed is prone to both. This week I had 4 tumors excised from a 9 year old Ridgeback, one was supposedly a recurring MCT, 2 of the others were definitely Lipomas and the last was likely to be a lymph node reaction to the MCT only inches away.

Lipomas are tumors that tend to exist in animals fed a diet high in Hot Carbs.  A Hot card would be Corn, Wheat, Soy,  And White Rice.  Brown rice to a lessor extent.  Cold card diets with Tumeric added tend to inhibit the growth of lipomas.  A Cold Carb would be Oatmeal, Barley, Potato.

I have a large pack , the dog with the tumors is from my breeding but lived in New York , the owners were convinced the MCT had returned and sent him to me to have him checked out. They felt his attitude and behavior had dramatically changed , with the vet offering the thought the MCT had metastasized to the brain.   I won't go into that part beyond it would be the first time ANY vet I have known in 40+ years thinking a MCT might metastasize in that manner.   They spread in the tissue and muscle but just totally unlikely they would ever , ever get into the brain for many reasons... arrrgh you would think a guy who gets paid an obscene amount would know this as well.

Just a small word on MCTs  normally when they are tested they come back as a MCT grade 2 and people freak out...  this is because we are rarely told we ALL have MCTs in our bodies.  That would be a grade 1, the grade 2 simply means the cancer has become active in growth patterns.  It is not an immediate death sentence .

My pack is comprised or retired and active show and therapy dogs. They are all in excellent shape and toned to the best shape possible. My hounds who run between 65 and 105 pounds never get more than 5 cups of food a day.  Period, A dog's stomach is not really as big as they would like us to think.  giving a dog 10 cups or more a day would likely cause vomiting and diarrhea.  It would be better to investigate high calorie options while keeping his fats limited to protect that knee.  A lean dog is a good thing.  A thin or fat dog will always have issues.

Final note for any one who reads this... if you have ANY tumor aspirated for determination of type and grade Insist on a shot of benadryl beforehand.  The benadryl acts beneficially in the histimic release of cells when the needle breaks the tumor wall creating an open wound.  We often think it is only a pin *** but the long time breeders I know and trust would never allow the manipulation of any tumor with out it.

Best of luck and hope you will keep us posted on Floyd's progress .

Thanks for your resoonse. When Floyd got the MCT''s in 05 I did put him on a cooked diet without a lot of carbs.His vet and I are impressed that he made almost four years without another MCT. If we can pull it off again, he'll have lived a long life and we'll have done well by him. It won't help my sorrow, but you know how that goes.

Because of his breeding and background, Floyd paced for 22 hours. It was horrid. His knee is uncomfortable for sitting, so he just paced.

I'm not too worried about the weight. I purposely dropped five lbs off him with the knee surgery. He's not carrying that type of muscle. He's always been a heavy eater, but 10 cups of food is a huge amount. Floyd needs to gain five pounds.

Bonita of Bwana

Just a small word on MCTs  normally when they are tested they come back as a MCT grade 2 and people freak out...  this is because we are rarely told we ALL have MCTs in our bodies.  That would be a grade 1, the grade 2 simply means the cancer has become active in growth patterns.  It is not an immediate death sentence .

What Bonita says here is GOLD -- we ALL (human and dog both) have mast cell occurring NORMALLY in our bodies.  We need them.  They are literally a **histamine** cell.

Stacita

I'm wondering if there's an allergy relationship here. It's been a bad season for allergies. One of my other dogs had some allergy problems this year,

YES there is a huge relationship between "allergies" and "mast cell" **BECAUSE** mast cell is a histamine cell to begin with. (which is why, as Bonita says, a shot of antihistamine *helps*( the spread.

That, however, doesn't mean that a steady diet of Benedryl stops mast-cell cancer from developing.

\The immune system should go "on" and "off" in response to a perceived threat by the body.  The first cells that replicate wrongly (which is essentially what cancer is) should be DESTROYED by the body as an immune response.   Allergy actually IS an immune problem -- the immune system should respond to allergens by releasing the body's own anti-histamine.  When it doesn't we get allergy symptoms.

Lipomas are pretty well completely separate -- they are a fatty tumor.  however -- it's possible that the diet is setting the body up for *both* types of tumors.  But honestly some dogs are just plain prone to limpomas in their older age -- And I've had plenty of dogs who have had lipomas -- and plenty who have had cancer -- and honestly rarely both.  (and I'm way more familiar with mast cell than I wish I was)

I can tell you that I've had **awesome results** with TCVM particularly for mast cell cancer.  When Muffin had his, we knew they did *not* get clear margins with his surgery (there just wasn't enough tissue TO take).  We gave him chemo but that's where I first experiencned the Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine -- first off, it made chemo almost a non-event.  (no nausea, no diarreha, no bad side effects). 

 But most of all is how it prevents more mast cell - The Chinese word for cancer is "stagnant blood".  In Chinese medicine if blood is moving as it should thru the body and is cleansing the cells **as it should** then cancer won't develop. (which ties in with the immune stuff) But the first thing they do in TCVM is to put a dog with mast cell on "blood movers' -- literally an herb/tonic that helps the blood circulate better in the body so it is oxygenating the cells and cleansing them more efficiently.  Again and again I've seen it prevent further recurrence - or at least has slowed down recurrence of mast cell in a dog that has already shown up with mast cell.

http://www.tcvm.com -- that's the Chi Institute link -- if you go on the left side there is a locator.  Please check it out -- and if I can help you in any way (particularly to know what to expect) I'm happy to do so.

Well the TCVM sounds like what we need to do for Floyd. That is available in our area.  I'm not worried about these particular tumors. The ones he got in 05 were in the groin and they were narrow but clean margins. We were so concerned that we went to the e-vet the morning after finding one, (in the morning there were two) and had them removed there. Most people felt it was excessive at the time, but over Thanksgiving weekend, maybe it was the best option.  He saw his regular vet on Monday for a bandage change and she recommended Prednisone. The next day, I took him to a holistic vet who recommended supplements and a diet change and we didn't do Pred. He developed another tumor which was removed the same day as the stitches from his other tumors. He also had his sebaceous (sp)? cyst removed.

I've never seen a dog that demoralized and I absolutely said bring on the Prednisone. Floyd did about four months on the Prednisone, and it worked. I can't say if it contributed to his knee problem later, but if it did, it did. Floyd wasn't psychologically strong enough to go through more surgery without a good long break. He's a BYB Mali, who spent six months in a kill shelter. He was deemed an "aggressive" dog because he bit the AC officer and didn't leave his cage the entire time. . Given his circumsances, biting the AC officer made a lot of sense. Keeping him quanantined didn't.

These tumors were brand new and in the chest area, where she was able to get big margins. I am worried about future tumors. I did put Floyd back on Prednisone. I need at least three months before we can do surgery again. My very mentally sound dog knew when her second knee blew, and suffered emotionally.

It kind of surprised me that he also developed three tiny lipomas at the same time. Both of my other dogs each developed one small lipoma at the age of seven. Floyd got one at seven and one at eight and half. One had grown somewhat and might have eventaully needed removal.

I don't think diet is the big factor. I do a home prepared diet based on Monica Segal, and I've used some grains in the past, primarily barley, but it's a good stuff diet. I can't afford strictly organic, but I come close with everything but meat and even then never buy meat with sodium added.

I did put Floyd on Prednisone again. This was a big, horrid surgery, and I won't do it to him again in the near future. He's running around like a young dog again, so there's an effect on his pain levels from his ortho problems. Floyd has always been a huge eater. I saw his profile on the internet, talked to his foster mom quite a bit, went out to meet him and fell in love. The one thing we didn't talk about was how much he ate. We were doing the paper work when I asked what he'd been fed. Eight cups of kibble plus a can per day for a skinny dog. Yikes!!!

You'll want to do milk thistle if you're doing pred.  I've posted about milk thistle half a hundred times on here -- just do LOTS.  It's not bad tasting -- you can buy it in bulk (powder) and save yourself a ton of money.  Or you can do the caps -- but if you are cooking, then you should be able to just stir in the powder (like probably 1/2 to 1 teas. per meal).

Monica ROCKS.  She's an old friend of mine (literally we used to write for the same website about 12 years ago) and I love her stuff.  Her diets are complicated but REALLY superb.  She learned diet stuff cooking for her own cavaliers.  I've always felt like she really cares.  It was Monica that gave me my first "cancer" diet for a dog literally about 10 years ago.

If you want some help picking the TCVM vet holler -- *don't* pick the one token holistic vet in a bigger practice (that's my own experience).  I like the one who is the lone wolf who does *only* TCVM -- they may have a small eclectic practice but usually are good. 

Unless you are close to Cheryl Schwartz -- if you can get to her she is literally the lady who wrote the book.  "Four Paws Five Directions" -- it's the normal personl's guide to TCVM and an awesome resource. I know she's in CA but I'm completely stupid about CA geography.

I have that book and I didn't understand all of it, but that's OK.

You think Monica is complicated, well try making one diet that works for three dogs. Oh wait, you have for four. I don't know what you know about Standard Process supplements, but I put Wolfgang on that and a Monica diet for early kidney problems. Within a year, the numbers were normal, so I'm using their supplements for Floyd's liver. I was able to discontinue the supplement and W's kidneys have been fine for a couple of years. Do you think I ought to do Milk Thistle too? After discontinuing the Prednisone the first time, his numbers went right back to the normal range. Of course he's a bit older now.

Some idiot called AC on me saying my dog was a starved GSD that had been used for fighting. Yes, my dog has many scars and I have many vet bills to prove it. He probably should gain five pounds, but the vet isn't worried as long as he doesn't lose more. The Prednisone makes him feel great and he's very active so gaining 1/2 pound in two weeks isn't bad. The AC officer was very nice.

If I can get another four year remission for this dog, I will be so happy. We got 46 months and that's a big blessing.

Standard Process stuff is awesome -- a bit pricey but super good stuff (and one of my vets uses them a LOT)

 I do milk thistle ANY time they are exposed to toxins -- from meds to lawn spray and beyond.  It takes SIX MONTHS for pred to get out of the body.

I'll go ahead and add Milk Thistle too. I've read enough of your posts to know where to get it. I actually get a pretty big price break on the Standard Process, so I pay about half of what it cost at the vet's.

I'm feeling enouraged that he can do as well or better this thime around as last time. At this point, I don't plan on the Pred permanently. Probably six months.