Liver and kidney support

I use Denosyl when Chyna has to be on an NSAID for an extended period of time.  We draw bloods every 45 days, if she has to be on something for that long.

Denosyl is a really good product -- it's sort of a pharmaceutical grade of Sam-e but prescribed by vets.

Milk thistle -- there is no "dose" -- just LOTS.  Milk thistle itself is primarily a liver *protectant*.  It also helps detox but it's primary best use is in protection of the liver.  In order to protect the kidneys you have to give a **LOT**. 

You can give milk thistle in capsules -- or you can give the plain ground herb.  My dogs have no problem at all with just the plain ground herb in their food.  Start off with getting a bottle of capsules (not time release, not gel-cap - just the ground herb in capsules) and you want to *start* with the adult human dose twice a day.  Try it a couple of times just emptying a capsule in their food and see if it's ok.  (it's MUCH cheaper in bulk)

Milk thistle also comes in a tincture (liquid).  The tincture is essentially a bit more potent.  But it's also very alcohol-y -- now Billy tolerates it fine.  Some dogs don't like it.  Again start minimum with the adult human dose twice a day. 

I keep saying 'start' -- and I mean that.  That is a bare minimum dose. 

When Billy was taking all the immune supressants for IMHA I was terrified, to be honest.  I'd already lost a dog to kidney damage from meds ... and I knew the cyclosporine was hard, notonly on the liver, but particularly on the kidneys.  And cockers are hard-wired for renal failure. 

*sigh* 

So, I started with 2 droppers full *twice* a day in his food of milk thistle tincture. (HerbPharm is the best you can get) 

But honestly?  Every time we'd see another side effect, every time I knew he was having a hard time of it, I'd get scared.  And honestly?  Every time I got scared -- he got more milk thistle.

By the time he'd been on the immune suppressors 6 months he was getting FIVE droppersfull twice a day.  (I shoulda just bought stock in HerbPharm*sigh*).  And by the time we weaned him off (finally) after 18 months he was getting 5 droppersfull of tincture twice a day PLUS a teaspoon full of milk thistle powder twice a day.

Excessive?  Perhaps -- but he has functioning kidneys!  And given all the HORRIFIC urinary tract infections he had while on the cyclosporine -- I've had about four vets tell me that my "excessive" use of it probably saved his kidneys.  There *IS* some kidney damage, but not a lot.

Depend on where you get it, a bottle of good quality milk thistle caps is about $15 - $20.  In a bottle of 80 caps, there's approximately 2 oz of "herb" powder in a bottle of caps.  You can get a pound of milk thistle powder for $12.75 at http://www.leavesandroots.com -- (go to "M" -- and when you see milk thistle  you want the ground herb, NOT 'whole seed';)

So that pound of milk thistle powder is equal to about $90 - $160 worth of capsules.  (yeah, "cheaper" huh??)

Leaves and Roots is where I get mine.  There are other places you can get it bulk onlne -- but I've known her for years and she carries a darned good herb.  You have to do a $20 order minimum.  But when you're dishing it out in the quantity I'm talking about you'll use 2 poundns faster than you'd think.

I'd probably tell you to stick to the powdered herb -- it's easier and cheaper to be honest.  And both of them have their uses.

NOW -- beyond that -- Sam-e (or Denosyl if you want to use the vet-prescribed pharmaceutical) is darned good stuff.  But it's more expensive.

SAMe (adenosyl methionine) is a "detox".  Where milk thistle protects the Sam-e gets the toxins out of the body.  I typically use milk thistle until I see liver values go up and *then* I use SAMe if I need to. 

SAMe comes in 200 mg or 400 mg caps.  These little caps are individually sealed in foil.  Air destroys them.  NOT cheap -- now I've bought tons of the stuff, but you'll get sticker shock when you price it.  Buying a 'cheap' one likely isn't smart because you kinda get what you pay for.  I've seen 60 caps for $20 and I've seen 60 caps for $60 -- all depends on the quality and where you get it.

The one I've decided I like the best is CellFood (the company is "NuScience";) - it's the ONLY liquid SAMe I know of.  It's a suspension of the chemical in a supplement called "Cell Food" that is itself darned good stuff.  Billy and Tink both had some liver toxicity this past spring and I was giving them between 8 - 12 drops twice a day.

Now ... a little bitty bottle is $41 BUT it went further than the 450 mg tablets did.  Easier than messing with those foil packs but mostly I just plain like how it worked on the dogs.  The $41 bottle lasted two dogs about 3 weeks to a month.  I'm betting a dog Spip's size would need the 12-14 drops twice a day.  That's a GUESS.

You can't get CellFood SAMe from Leaves and Roots -- but if you go to http://www.cellfood.com they have a locator on their website.  However, you can get SAMe in most ANY health store anywhere. 

The Denosyl that Amanda is talking about IS a super good quality product -- it's made by the same company that makes Adequan.  I have my own personal problems with the company but their quality is superb

I hope that wasn't confusing.

 Emma takes Metacam and Phenobarbital every day, and has for some time, now. I do bloodwork every three months. My vet thinks it's slightly excessive, buuuuut with previous issues, I want to know.

Milk thistle, I do the adult dose, twice a day, for her. She's 20 lbs. I usually get capsules, and dump them in her food. It doesn't taste like anything.

Thanks all. We are seeing the vet this afternoon and I'll ask her about the Denosyl and talk with her about the blood draw frequency, keeping your advice in mind.

Callie, thanks for taking the time to walk me thru all that. I'll look at the websites and all the info today. If I go that route, I really appreciate having recommendations for trusted web sources. If I use milk thistle caps, do I have to empty them or can I give them whole ? Spip swallows any medications with no problem.

Noooooooo you don't have to empty them at all -- I only suggested that you see if   Spip *will* take it loose before you invest in a whole pound of powder.  It's just so much cheaper that way is all (and to be perfectly honest, the quality of L&R's herbs is incredibly good).

That same company that makes the Denosyl **also** makes "Marin" which is the pharmaceutical grade milk thistle. They literally process it to such a degree that it isn't the "herb" any more but *is* a pharmaceutical  Then they have a 'combo' called "Denamarin" that has both. 

It's a company that is trying hard to make such alternative stuff acceptable to vets simply by being SO high quality and so 'tested' that vets feel safe using it.  I have some serious issues with their "testing" procedures and I won't use them, but they put out a very good quality product if you feel strongly that you need to stay within a pharmaceutical range.

My one caution (and I've been round and round about this with ALL my vets -- both holistic and regular) is that because the Marin is so 'processed' you can't use enough of it to protect the kidneys.  You literally have to follow the doseage recommendations.

Using milk thistle is *not* typically linked to protecting the kidneys.  That's extra research that my own holistic vet has done (And Dr. DiNatale teaches for the Chi Institute and she's darned well known all over the US and further) and that I did on my own when Billy was battling IMHA.  But all I can tell you is I'm darned glad I did. 

We saw the vet and she said that the Denosyl is indeed what they carry. But she also said that milk thistle and Sam-E in combination was a good alternative and agreed to this way of doing things. So, because I wanted to start right away and use natural stuff if possible, I went to the health store and was able to find milk thistle caps right away (Solaray, 175 mg, 80% silymarin guaranteed) . I'll go back and look for the Sam-E tomorrow.

Spip took her first one whole after her snack. I think I'll give her 2 caps a day (it is the high end of human dosage on the bottle) to start with. I'll perhaps try to empty one on breakfast to see what she does in case we have to up her intake and/or want to use the ground herbs in the long term. We had bloodwork done a week ago before her sedation and all liver values were fine so it is really trying to prevent any trouble, not curing anything present. However, her BUN was very slightly elevated (27 instead of 23, I think). The vet also said that Deramaxx potential impact is on the liver, not so much on the  kidneys and did not recommend a kidney supplement at this time. Does that fit with what you know ?

As far as bloodwork frequency, she said she likes to do it every six weeks, just like what Amanda does. That is reassuring because should anything becomes off key, we will know quickly.

That all makes sense -- Solaray is a decent brand -- it's not as good as it used to be (it was bought by a huge conglomerate who just wants to cash in on the "herbal craze" so they don't really care about quality any more unfortunately).  But it will tell you what you need to know for now and get you to the next level.

I think you're right -- typically you just prevent problems -- you shouldn't need to do the SAMe right now.