What vaccines?

This is one of those questions that has been discussed a zillion times -- you might want to check the archives. 

My answer is that other than rabies I titer rather than vaccinating.  A titer is a blood test to tell you if they are sufficiently showing immunity to things like parvo and distemper. 

I won't give the "combo" shot (which is what most vets tend to give) that has like 7-8 diseases in it -- it's a killed vaccine (which just hits the dog with a lot of different disease but doesn't develop immunity well for any of them).  The only things that really are critical are rabies (b/c it's the law) and parvo and distemper.  The rest aren't things I vaccinate for at all (and even Lyme is pretty hotly contested depending on where you live).

Read the archives -- seriously.  Because if you don't really like the vet then it is IMPORTANT for you to be well read and know what you're doing in order for others to listen to you and value what you say. 

Spazzy

how accurate are the heartworm tests?

There are two types of tests.  The cheaper one just determines whether there are any microfilaria (initial baby stage) in a blood sample.  If there are microfilaria, then the dog has heartworms.  If there are no microfilaria, it does not necessarily mean that there are no heartworms.  There could be only males or only a couple of female heartworms that have not produced many babies yet.  It could also mean that the dog has been on heartworm meds that have killed the microfilaria.  (NOTE:  Microfilaria will die of old age without further development unless sucked up into a mosquito for their next growth stage.)

The second test detects antigens produced by mature adult female heartworms.  There must be something like 6-8 such females to produce enough antigen for the test to be positive.   A  negative result tells you that there is only a very small chance of a significant heartworm infection. Statistically it is possible to get a large population of males with no females, but that would be very rare.

There is no way at all to detect mature adult male heartworms.  There is also no way to detect immature heartworms - male or female.

For what they do, the tests are pretty accurate.  Unfortunately neither test can ever tell you definitively that there are no heartworms in the dog's system and I think this is what you are really asking about.

Thanks guys. Ill ask about the titers when we go to the vet. If they dont cost too much then hopfully i can him tested instead of getting over vaccinated. He will probably just end up getting rabies vacc and a heartworm test. Hes on interceptor and from what ive read on all the threads everyone seems to a agree interceptor is the best. How exactly do heartworm meds prevent heartworms? I give it every 30 days... but i read on here some people give it every 40? Why is that?

Starting with a puppy, I do the three (I think?) regular DHLPP vaccines followed by rabies once the puppy is 4 months, then rabies again a year later, and then every three years.  Our law requires rabies and doesn't specify how often, so the three year protocol is acceptable.

I've been doing the DHLPP once a year but might switch that to every three as well.

I do bordetella often, but it's required for boarding and my dogs are routinely exposed.  I do it 1-2 times a year, depending on requirements (some places require within 6 months).

Heartworm I do once a month.  I use Interceptor but I'm switching back to dosing my own ivermectin because it's soooo much cheaper and I don't have to go to the vet all the time.  One $8 tube will not be used up before it expires (1 year).  If I get Interceptor from the vet we have to do a heartworm test every year or they won't give me any more.

Heartworm pills don't really prevent heartworm, they kill the worms at a certain stage in their life so they prevent them from becoming full blown heart worms.  That's why it's important to be consistent, and give it each month.  In areas where heartworm is more of a seasonal issue, we have to give it for three months after the threat is gone (so in MI even though it freezes and snows Oct - April, we give heartworm April - Dec and I just give it year round to be consistent and because it kills other worms and parasites).

I do not titre for cost reasons and because my dogs are healthy and don't have any conditions that are exaggerated by vaccines.

Spazzy

How exactly do heartworm meds prevent heartworms? I give it every 30 days... but i read on here some people give it every 40? Why is that?

Heartworm "meds" are pesticides  They kill microfilaria (prevents spread of heartworms) and immature heartworms less than about 45-days old (time since mosquito bite).  Interceptor and Heartgard are out of the dog's system within 24-48 hours and have absolutely no future action.

The term "heartworm preventative" is really a misnomer.  It is a pesticide that prevents young heartworms from growing up - by killing them.  Immature heartworms over about 45-days old are not killed.  The term "heartworm treatment" refers to the very toxic treatments that kill all stages of heartworms including mature adults.

To minimize the pesticide exposure some people give "preventatives" every 40-days.  I don't like that idea.  If one forgets a dosage, it gives very little time to remember before an immature heartworm could be too old to be killed. 

"Preventatives" are not foolproof.  Giving them every 30 days gives you two chances to kill an immature heartworm.  If an immature heartworm is in a position of low blood flow (low pesticide exposure) the first time, it may be killed the second time.

Interceptor and Heartgard also help to control intestinal worms.  Giving them every 40 days compromises that control.

[Whoops!  I originally said 30 days in the sentence above.]

Don't ever let anyone talk you into the ProHeart heartworm injection!!  It puts 6-months worth of pesticide into your dog's system.  The first version (pulled off the U.S. market) killed or severely damaged the health of thousands of dogs.  The second version is now in limited trials. 

I don't know why anyone would want their dog's kidneys and liver trying to handle a pesticide every day for 6-months.  I don't know why anyone would trust a time-released pesticide for which there is no antidote. 

Liesje

I've been doing the DHLPP once a year but might switch that to every three as well.

DHLPP [distemper-hepatitis(adrenovirus)-lepto-parvo-parainfluenza] is a bigger shot that I would ever give.  Since you don't want to titer and dogs need a physical once a year anyway, why not stagger the shots so you just give a couple each year?

If a dog develops a sensitivity to a vaccine, it is much easier to determine which vaccine if you are not giving a bunch at one time.

sl2crmeg

We require DHPP, rabies, and bordatella (yearly).

Your daycare requires all of those yearly??  If so, it requires overvaccination and management needs to update its protocols to match current research.

Here are some good links for reading about current vaccine research - especially the duration of immunity:

• Dr. Roger's chart on vaccines and the duration of immunity: 
  www.critteradvocacy.org/Canine%20Vaccination%20Guidlines.htm
• An excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines by Dr. Robert Rogers, DVM
  http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/
• 2006 AAHA Canine Vaccination Guidelines For the General Veterinary Practice
  http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/VaccineGuidelines06Revised.pdf
• 2007 Vaccine Guidelines - WSAVA - World Small Animal Veterinary Association 
  http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm
• Lots of articles on vaccination:
  http://www.dogaware.com/misc.html#vaccination

Liesje

Heartworm I do once a month.  I use Interceptor but I'm switching back to dosing my own ivermectin because it's soooo much cheaper and I don't have to go to the vet all the time.  One $8 tube will not be used up before it expires (1 year).  If I get Interceptor from the vet we have to do a heartworm test every year or they won't give me any more.

So what is ivermectin, shot/pill? and does it control anything other than heartworms, like interceptor does? Bailey got some type of intestinal parasite when he was on heartguard and he had to get a de wormer everyday for 2 weeks. After i switched him to interceptor we havent had any more problems with worms.  My vet wont give us any interceptor unless we get a yearly heartworm test either. Even though we order it off 1800 pet meds usually we still need a perscription.  When we order interceptor we get the 51-100 pound pack. All the smaller packs have a smaller range of weight 11-25lbs, 26-50lbs. 51 to 100 seems like a pretty wide range.... Bailey is usually around 65, closer to 70 in the winter. But his normal summer "in shape" weight is 65 ish. Should i be breaking it up or is it ok that he gets a big dose of it?

Spazzy

So what is ivermectin, shot/pill? and does it control anything other than heartworms, like interceptor does?

Ivermectin is the active ingredient in Heartgard.  The paste and liquid forms of ivermectin are normally used for livestock.

The amount of ivermectin in Heartgard was reduced so that dogs with the mutated MDR1 gene can tolerate this pesticide.  (There is a test for this gene.)  Some believe the reduction of the amount of ivermectin in Heartgard has lead to failures (i.e. heartworm infestations).

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/
"Approximately 3 of every 4 Collies in the United States have the mutant MDR1 gene. The frequency is about the same in France and Australia, so it is likely that most Collies worldwide have the mutation. The MDR1 mutation has also been found in Shetland Sheepdogs (Shelties). Australian Shepherds, Old English Sheepdogs, German Shepherds, Long-haired Whippets, Silken Windhounds, and a variety of mixed breed dogs.

The only way to know if an individual dog has the mutant MDR1 gene is to have the dog tested. As more dogs are tested, more breeds will probably be added to the list of affected breeds."

(1) Heartgard (just ivermectin) does not control worms;
(2) Heartgard Plus will take care of roundworms and hookworms (with a 2nd pesticide); 
(3) Interceptor will take care of roundworms, hookworms, and whipworms;
(4) Panacur/Safe-Guard will take care of roundworms, hookworms, whipworms, and Taenia species tapeworms;
(5) Droncit/D-Worm(link) (praziquantel) will get Taenia species tapeworms, flea tapeworms, Echinococcus species tapeworms, broad fish tapeworms, and Spirometra mansonoides tapeworms. 
 
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1622&articleid=769
(1) Taenia species tapeworms can be acquired from rodents, rabbits, sheep, goats, cattle, pig, deer, and reindeer. 
(2) Hydatid tapeworms (Echinococcus species) can be acquired from voles, lemmings, shrews, and herbivores such as sheep.
(3) Broad fish tapeworms (Diphyllobothrium latum) can be acquired from copepods (a type of freshwater crustacean), minnows, and larger fish, such as perch, walleye, trout, and pike.
(4) Spirometra mansonoides tapeworms can be acquired from copepods (a type of freshwater crustacean), birds, snakes, reptiles, amphibians, and rodents.

Spazzy

My vet wont give us any interceptor unless we get a yearly heartworm test either.

Since no heartworm "preventative" is foolproof, a yearly test is a good idea regardless of the med used.

Spazzy

Even though we order it off 1800 pet meds usually we still need a perscription.  When we order interceptor we get the 51-100 pound pack. All the smaller packs have a smaller range of weight 11-25lbs, 26-50lbs. 51 to 100 seems like a pretty wide range.... Bailey is usually around 65, closer to 70 in the winter. But his normal summer "in shape" weight is 65 ish. Should i be breaking it up or is it ok that he gets a big dose of it?

You should not be breaking it up.  First, there is no guarantee that the pesticide is spread evenly through the tablet, so you might be underdosing.  Second, for the sake of discussion let's assume that 1-3mg/lb of body weight is the correct dosage.  Then

• 11 lbs would need 11-33mg
• 25 lbs would need 25-75mg
• 50 lbs would need 50-150mg
• 100 lbs would need 100-300mg

The overlap between 11lbs and 25lbs would be 25-33mg.  The overlap between 50lbs and 100lbs would be 100-150mg.

Overlapping dosage ranges is the way they determine what tablet sizes to make, so I would not be at all worried about Bailey getting too much of the pesticide.

janet_rose

sl2crmeg

We require DHPP, rabies, and bordatella (yearly).

Your daycare requires all of those yearly??  If so, it requires overvaccination and management needs to update its protocols to match current research.

No, just stupid bord is yearly :) sorry, that was worded kind of funny. They'll take the 3 yr rabies or DHPP.